Nope
I love you, man, and Iron is probably right we agree on say, maybe 90% of stuff and definitely the core. But c’mon now. I can build out a case for a natural right to self-defense, but we all know that isn’t what the Second Amendment is about, and we also know it isn’t in the Good Book.
The concept of self defense is most assuredly set down in the commandments God at least by Moses. I would argue that it most likely goes all the way back to Noah, possibly even to Cain and Able. I’m not arguing the idea of militias go back to Noah. But the ancient Israelite did have that concept in the days of Moses. Moses could call up quite a few of the faithful men to deal with the idolatrous Hebrews that got out of hand. I will say that the concepts were not as clear and spelled out in detail in ancient time, but the kernel of the idea was present.
As for natural rights arguement, I would say that it fails, as with all man made philosophy, because it isn’t rooted in anything transcendent or objective. It collapses in human subjective thinking…its a wax nose that can be formed into whatever the molder wants.
I’m glad we could agree on most things.
So there’s a problem right there.
If your mother in Nancy Pelosi, are you still required to honor her? What if your father was a serial killer?
Then there is the whole sabbath thing, jews saturday and christians sunday…who is actual correct and which entire group is hell bound for violating the sabbath every single week?
Also you seem to be wanting to declare a state religion, how do you reconcile that with the first amendment? If I’m a Nestorian which predate Protestantism and Church of England and thus predate all KJV bibles by more than a millennium does that mean you have to observe Nestorism or do we all default to Greek Orthodox?
Think of Honoring your parents that are horrible people in the same light as to love your enemy. Loving someone is more of an action than a feeling. If I’m to honor even my serial killer father, I must remember that God used even this evil person to bring me into existence. Fatherhood even in very flawed men is still an intrinsically good thing. I must see that good thing even in the horrible father. I must treat that father, though an enemy, with due respect as an image bearer of God, I must apply all the other commandments to him as well. Applying the commandments doesn’t mean we overlook or not tell the truth about his horrible sin of murder.
Most Christians today reject keeping any kind of “Christian sabbath”. I do try to keep it because it is continuing moral law just like the other 9 commandments, being instituted at creation. A rest from this world is helpful to me, but I must admit that I have much to learn in keeping it. I lack a certain consistency, I will not buy or sell on the day, I will not recreate, but my mind drifts to worldly things. which in and of themselves are not necessarily sinful on the other six days, but do draw me away from Christ. I believe that God has the prerogative to change the day from Saturday to Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Christ. I believe He did. As for the Jews that still maintain their religion, I would say that their unbelief concerning Christ is much more of a sin than their rejecting the Christian sabbath. You are essentially rejecting Him who is greater than the sabbath. They are as responsible to God to believe as I am. Does that mean hell for them? All sin is worthy of death. Protests to the RCC were going on long before Luther, Zwingli and Calvin. The fight to reform the church according to Christ’s and the Apostles teachings is a never ending battle. The church and false converts were even resisting the Apostles while they were still alive. There was periods of reformation and apostasy in the OT and in the present time. I believe what happen in England, Ireland and Scotland in the 16th and 17th centuries was a faithful reformation and mighty moving of God. My church prays for that kind of reformation to happen in the whole world, which we believe God has promised. To throw up one’s hands and give up saying it’s hopeless to know the truth because of all the schism is ultimately just a rejection of God and His scriptures, it’s to continue in unbelief.
It is true, I’m an establishmentarian. The truly righteous ruler must be helped by a united Christian church. The faithful minister of the gospel can help the magistrate to understand the will of God from His scriptures for the good of the nation and it’s people. Magistrates are not helped by endless schisms and listening to the supposed wisdom of heathen religions any more than righteous king Josiah was helped to rule by listening to the priests of Baal in the OT. The magistrate is not exempt from obeying Christ. As I have said before, He’s not referred to as the King of kings, and the Lord of lords for nothing. Magistrates must publicly recognize and own Christ and that spiritual institution He has created, the church. See Psalm 2. The righteous kings of ancient Israel always publicly recognized the true religion and it’s institutions, and was a member therein. We are told that they were an example to us.
I didn’t answer your specific question about Nestorianism. Simply put there were many views in the early church swirling about concerning the nature of the relationship between the divine and human nature of Christ. The early church had to iron out the true doctrine and reject the false one. This history of doctrinal hashing out can be difficult to take on, and I’m no expert. But I do believe the men of that time in the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon came to the correct view and it has survived in the west to this day. Are they infallible? No, no council is. Do I believe they are correct, yes. I’m held responsible for what I believe, I’m basically betting my life on it.
Pass. This is why I’m not a christian. I have no interest in loving evil, vile, reprehensible people. You forgive if you wish, I never will. To me forgiving evil is evil. I’m more of a karma person.
Couldn’t be christian if I tried, mostly because of this mindset. I understand people make mistakes, and if they are good people they fix it best they can. But I also understand there are very, very bad people…the kind of people who can engage in vivisection on an innocent child. That person will never find forgiveness in me and if I’m a very good person and presented with the opportunity I will check them off the planet.
I believe never harm the innocent, never overlook the guilty. I believe most actions require acceptance or retaliation. I don’t believe we are born flawed and I don’t believe in evil forces that compel us to do bad things, I think some people are quite capable of inhumanity all by themselves. That is my religion, although it’s not really spiritual.
But here is the real fatal flaw in your idea. Assume for a moment we practiced universal christianity. I don’t believe in the supernatural so even if I abided by the 10 commandments and went to church everyday…according to your beliefs I’d still be lost and unsavable because I honestly don’t believe in any deity or demons or supernatural whatever at all. And if jawheh is truly omnipotent my devotion won’t trick him. I will be damned because I never received the minimal critical evidence I’d require to accept belief in judeo christianity. And honestly, that’s a pretty shitty deal and I would present as evidence that not everyone is trying to be saved by anyone.
This is true. The only way to save this country is to shift the culture back. Unfortunately we no longer have a voice. The Marxist own the media. It’s hard to get a young man’s attention when some whore is twerking in has face singing about her wap.
A war won’t necessarily fix a culture issue either, just look at the middle east. Eventually western culture will rise again, but probably not until after people get fed up with living under a boot. China will probably get there before we do as their people have been under it for longer (although they seem more accepting of it).
Soli Deo Gloria
This is why we can never have anything.
Let’s say the culture war shifted. Everybody got their freedom, dignity, and responsibility back.
We’d piss it away again squabbling about which religious practices to get fanatical about.
If you were that religious then you really wouldn’t want a gun.
And so you shall not.
I see the routine now. I write something generally biblical, you then ask some questions about what would Tom do, I then try to answer you the best I am able, you then come back with I don’t believe anything you or the bible says about much of anything. Why don’t we just shorten this whole routine of yours by cutting the whole middle out. I say something generally biblical, you just reject everything out of hand, and then I say OK. Saves me writing.
Yeah, you have to watch out for that Jesus guy. He and His followers are always causing problems, with His teachings and all.
Poor John, he seems to have succumbed to the idea that his enemy’s enemy is his friend. They’re not. I’ve seen that on this forum. The day that Christians wake up to the fact that they have hitched their wagon to people who say they are their friends, understand they have been used by politicians from both sides and especially reject unfaithful ministers and wolves in the pulpit, maybe then there will be a true unity in the church, then a 3rd reformation. Then maybe God will bring a good change.
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Well because it’s not a routine.
You said something, I replied. You clarified, I clarified in response.
But the entire time I’ve just been supporting my initial view and pointing out why the 10 commandments as law of the land aren’t gonna save us as a society or even save our souls or at least mine and that is assuming souls in the judeo christian sense actually exist.
I also thought we were exchanging ideas, I did try and be polite in the expressing of my views. As for saving us time, I could easily put that ball in your court and say “don’t say anything biblical if you don’t want it challenged” but that wouldn’t be polite and it would be me presuming that my view is somehow more valid than yours.
So equal time and all that.
Few other things.
First you are a fundamentalist in CA, I would think you would be very accustomed to people who question or completely reject your beliefs.
Second, and more importantly, why does it concern you what I believe? I always considered religion a very personal thing. I don’t care what anyone else believes, why does my non acceptance of your beliefs bother you at all? I simply wouldn’t want to participate in your quasi theocracy any more than I’d want to live under sharia law, but you are still free to believe as you wish unimpeded by my beliefs.
Third, if you felt somehow set up or whatever. That isn’t me. We are on the internet discussing guns and religion. I thought we were just talking. I’m not the guy who does clever slights or whatever, if I’m being unfriendly with somebody…it will be very, very obvious. I’m not that subtle.
I am somewhat offended to have my entire belief system dismissed as a “routine”, but not enough that it actually bothers me.
Quit bothering. I’ve long come to the conclusion that Tombo not only doesn’t really believe in all the religious stuff but that he uses it for cheap heat.
Instead of being like a rational adult and saying “Hey. Well whatever works for you” he has to go on some longwinded spiel and then get “offended” because someone else has either a different belief or no religious belief.
It’s very dangerous and unethical what he does because most ardent atheists were victims of spiritual abuse and basically said “Aw who F’ing needs it?” and then there are just the basically irreligious who simply never had exposure and don’t want it.
He will beat you over the head with a religious text that is a mishmash of Assyrian fable, Jewish myth, a record of a religious upstart and the religious infighting that continued alongside contradictory Zionic code, brutal sentences usually ending in death, and if you tell him Jesus (wasn’t even His real name. It was Immanuel. Jesus is a Shoah name. And basically means “Blank”) was actually Black. He will shit a brick trying to beat you over the head that Jesus had fair, delicate Caucasian features as opposed to the short, hooknosed, oily skinned, curly haired brown person that He actually was.
So don’t even punch that tar baby. I like to keep my church and state totally separate.
Like the Founders intended.
Steyr, maybe I’m butting in here a bit, but it’s worth a comment.
I do not naturally love my enemies. Beyond “my enemies,” I also do not naturally love those who do evil.
It is possible and realistic to genuinely care about an individual that does not deserve it and whom you may be “flipping the off switch” on in the name moment. Here’s what I mean: If someone does something terrible and illegal to a member of my family, I can forgive that person. But I can also join the posse/testify against that person despite knowing his head will end up on a spike/hanged/lethal injection.
Justice and love are not mutually exclusive things. Justice is impersonal; love is personal.
Again, do I now or would I in the above example naturally love? No. It isn’t natural. It is a conscious submission to how I am told I must think and act, and the founder of my faith set the example himself. Beyond the conscious submission, I would suggest it takes a supernatural push from within, but that’s maybe a little beyond the main point.
I haven’t watched John’s video. However, to Firefly’s point about being “religious” as antithetical to owning a gun… Nah. Swords were more the things back in the day, and they were “explicitly approved.”
Would I allow myself to be murdered for my faith without fighting back? Maybe. But I don’t see that happening here for the next couple decades. Would I allow a mugger to take my wallet? Yeah. It’s just money or an ID. Would I let someone steal my kid off the playground or wander into my daughter’s bedroom in the middle of the night? Ah, no. Not going to be a good day for him. If that situation ever arose, I would have to separate hate and love both from a separate command to care for our families. To go a step further, I see no issue (and actually see example) of taking up arms for nation and principles, but if I ever did, I should be looking for opportunities to end that strife as soon as feasible.
A bit rambling, but my point is that your position is most natural, and Christianity acknowledges the illogical nature of our commanded approach. But I think it has brought peace to a lot of hearts/minds which in turn have changed the world for the better.
Evangelistic hook on the eve of Easter: God loves you, despite your (with the whole world) rejection of him and your demand that he conform to your evidentiary requirements. He came to earth specifically to demonstrate that love on a corporate and personal level. His requirement is faith in his death and resurrection, but it isn’t even blind faith. Honestly, I don’t even see the Bible saying we have to like his approach…but we do have to believe it. So there you go. I don’t think logic is what wins most people over to Christ, but Mere Christianity is a classic, and Cold Case Christianity was decent as I recall.
You, too, Firefly. This was never a white man’s religion, though it dominated the culture at the time the expansion into the new world occurred.
Edit to correct spelling…and to “lol” that Firefly commented while I was thumbing that out.
I don’t really like to use words like this, but this is some the most self-righteous clap trap bullshit I think I’ve ever heard about me personally. But then again it’s Firefly, king of the bullshit.
I don’t know. Were my faith where I like it to be; I doubt that I would want to harm anyone. Even in the Garden, Jesus stayed their hands from violence and went willingly
Then [i]FORGIVE ME[/i] if you are Christian enough.
I’m willing, but somehow bullshitter I don’t think you really mean it, do ya bullshitter? It’s a miracle I don’t despise all cops after interacting with a waste like you.
Jesus was flogged, stoned, crucified and skewered and loved and forgave those who did these things.
I’m just a mildly buzzed guy on the can a whole country away who called you on your discrepancies of personality and you all you can do is curse (which you don’t ’like to do’) and get mad. Whether I was sincere or not (and I am) it’s still your duty to love and forgive.
What about “Love they neighbor”? You yourself are declaring the Ten Commandments as the supreme law of the land but you are breaking one right now.
It’s okay, you know not what you do.
Yours in Christ
So now we know, you’re drunk and decide to ream me a new one, swell. Just go sleep it off.