From a practical standpoint (not off of a bench with a lightened trigger), what kind of accuracy should a decent shooter expect with +p duty ammo out of a .38 special J Frame?
Hand sized groups out to about 30 ft shooting at a reasonable rate. Slow fire at 21 feet there may be no difference from a combat autoloader once you really get some rounds. Under your belt. My groups don’t really start falling apart until 25 yards. I can ring six inch plates at 30 ft as fast as I can shoot. I will try and do some testing next week with my two J-frames.
The mechanical accuracy of the J-frame is far better than most give it credit for. I always struggled to be accurate w/ 642s, but people like Hickok45 can do amazing things with them. Offhand from 7 yards with stock sights and +p ammo, you should have no problem keeping it on a paper plate firing fast. You can print some nice groups after you get used to the sights and you can stage the trigger.
642 with the Apex carry kit, 10rds shot into 51-0X on a B8 bull at 25. Standing off-hand slow fire.
442 all OEM, 5rds into 2" group (3" circle target) at 10yds.
My j is all steel so a bit different but I can do sub two inch groups at ten yards and less about four inch at fifteen six inch at 25 and reliably hit a idpa size steel at 100. I do shoot the 100 yard target in single action however.
Those few extra ounces of the steel gun I do not even not even notice with ankle carry but help at the range a lot with recoil control and comfort.
The airweight snubs are no less mechanically accurate than the typical combat auto ( probably even more) but are much harder to shoot well. I am an old school guy raised on revolvers so I tend to shoot them better.
To a new generation of shooters ( I had already been shooting handguns for several years when the glock was introduced)
Revolvers seem foreign
Bottom line the best point to make is the smaller the gun the harder it is to shoot well
I can not only hit a mosquito with mine, I can pick which eye the bullet goes through.
Kidding. Minute of soda can at about ten paces. I’m hardly an expert shot either.
The thing is to shoot it enough to get to know that heavy trigger.
As others have mentioned, J frames typically have the same mechanical accuracy as their larger K and L frame siblings. The major limiting factor is the shooter having to deal with the combo of a light gun, snappy recoil, and a long DA pull. A comfortable set of grips can make a world of difference, and there’s no shortage of options when it comes to J frames. Find some that fit you just right and practice away.
The J Frame is reasonably accurate out to 25 yards. Attached is a pic of a target I used to shoot our old 30 round secondary weapon qualification course. The course of fire is shot at 4, 7, 10 and 15 yards. Head shots are fired at 4 and 7 yards. I ran through 4 times with my BG38 and 158g semi-wadcutters loaded at 800 fps. There are 104 center of mass shots. I did not take a picture of a 30 round run with Speer Gold Dot 135g +P, but I wish I had.
My eye sight is failing, but the BG38 can still get decent hits. Once the flood waters recede at our gun club, I plan on seeing what the BG38 can hit at 100 yards with Speer Gold Dot +P 135g ammunition. I plan on shooting from the standing position and I’ll document what I miss.
Shooting groups off the bench is for benchrest shooters.
I agree that the J frame has excellent mechanical accuracy. Most people will not believe that a 2 inch revolver can be shot accurately in s.a. or d.a. fire. For years I didn’t understand d.a. shooting, and after having learned it, 99% of my revolver shooting is d.a. I’m convinced that 2 handed d.a. shooting can be equal to or exceed s.a. shooting. A long d.a. pull is preferable because the pull weight is spread out over a greater distance and eliminates or reduces jerkiness–for lack of a better term. A good revolver shot can do magic with the J. And so can you. They’ll fool you every time.
In my humble opinion, if you can shoot a double action revolver well, you can learn to shoot any firearm well.
Didn’t get any pics, but took my 642 to the range with 135gr +p Gold Dot.
Easy peezy. Very impressed with the accuracy.
I’ve owned a 642 before but it got stolen. Carried it a lot, but rarely shot it and had forgotten how accurate they could be. Unfortunately I did not have any plinking ammo and stopped shooting after a box. That shit hurts!
I agree with williejc’s comment about the long pull making it easier as it is spread out over a longer period. You can easily “pre-load” the trigger almost using it like a 2 stage and then shoot for great accuracy. Also if you practice and get the feel for it you can do a continuous pull that is still decently accurate at 21 feet.
This is a slow fire technique I have been using for over 30 years. If you place your trigger finger far enough in on the trigger, you can touch the finger tip against the frame and pause while you clean up the sight picture, then squeeze what you have left. With practice you can do this during a timed fire course like you would fire in a PPC match.
I had a little (very little) free time this morning, so I stopped by the gun club for 20 minutes and fired 10 rounds of Speer 135g +P Gold Dot at 100 yards with my J Frame. I fired 10 nasty looking rounds that I had been carrying in the J Frame and a speed strip for the past few years. At times there was so much perspiration on the J Frame and speed strip they looked like I dunked them in a bucket of water.
The sun was facing me, but I did not have time to wait for it to move higher in the sky. I did not warm up, I just fired. I am a firm believer that you are not going to have time to warm up when you truly need your J Frame, so once in a while you should measure your ability to hit your mark without practice.
If you look at the target, you can see 2 holes up high and 4 holes down low on paper. The first 2 holes were punched when I aimed neck hold and the last 4 holes were shot when I aimed center of mass. I believe 3 of the first 5 rounds went over the target and 1 of the second 5 rounds went under the target.
Not bad, but I believe I could do better with a little practice and prescription shooting glasses.
I went to the pictures first without reading and thought “Wow, this guy is terrible”
Then I Saw it was at 100 yards, haha! Good shooting! I took the 642 out again yesterday, and will be going again Monday. Those +P gold dots really smack the crap out of your palm, but are very accurate. Even rapid fire will still allow 8" hits at 7 yards. I think I assumed they were so inaccurate because my skill level was so much lower when I had my old 642.
Yes, I am terrible! I knew I pulled the shot to the right. The rest of the hits were in a 3" wide x 35" high area. I wish I knew how high and low off paper the misses were, but I’d bet horizontal dispersion is in the area of 12" or less.
One thing that I noticed about the BG38 is that the felt recoil is noticeably lighter than with my other J Frames. I think the black front and rear sights indexed on a black target do not make for an ideal sight picture. I may buy a Hi-Viz front sight and install it on the BG38. The laser just shot craps and a red front sight would come in handy. I would not think twice about carrying a 642 if that is all I had on hand. I owned one at one time, shot the daylights out of it, then sold it to my brother.
I am going to take another run at 100 yard groups when I have time during the afternoon and the sun is not a factor. I’ll bet a 24" or better group is doable.
I fired another 5 shot group at 100 yards with my BG38 this morning and printed a 16-1/2" wide x 19" high group. I aimed at high center chest roughly where the upper “8” is located on the silhouette. The 135g +P GDHP shoots POA at 25 yards, but seems to shoot a little to the left at 100 yards. I placed contrasting pasters on the holes to make them easy to see.
I am sure a good wheel gun shooter could shoot tighter groups at 100 yards with a J Frame, but I am not disappointed with my results. If you had to engage someone at 100 yards with your J Frame, you can at least place some rounds in the vicinity of the threat.
All I have shot to date are nasty looking carry rounds that I am not certain will fire. I am having some difficulty finding Speer .38 Special ammunition locally and will hold off further testing of 135g +P GDHP until I have a few more cruddy looking carry rounds to expend. I may break out some Winchester 158g +P LHP (my old carry round) and try it at a later date.
Now if I could just figure out why the sights are so blurry…
T2C
Fantastic shooting. I have a difficult time even getting a good sight picture with a rifle, let alone a snub. I am curious to try this out myself, I doubt I would best you.
Hell, at 7 yards my vision goes to absolute crap, even after a short period of time. The front blade on my 442 is bright red, testers paint. It helps, but only so much.
Your excersize here was interesting, I look forward to seeing how you do next time you attempt it. Very cool you can connect with man size objects at that range.
Yet another data point for snub carriers in the community. Thank you
25 yds in trained hands.
Nice job t2c ! I have shot my j at 100 and people are amazed a snub can hit at that distance but it just comes down to perfect application of the fundamentals- like any other shooting. While a bigger gun may be more forgiving past 25 yards it boils down to every aspect of technique being perfect!
I find since most revolvers are designed around the old standard 158 grain ammo they tend to shoot tighter groups closer to point of aim with 158’s so you may be pleasantly surprised when you try that bullet weight
Bob Munden, milk jug, 200 yards…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk