Is the NRA working against us?

With the McDonald case being heard on Tuesday I can’t escape the feeling that the NRA would be happy with something less than total victory especially if they can take the credit for it. Why else would they petition the court at the last minute to take 10 minutes of Alan Gura’s allotted 30 minutes of oral arguments on Tuesday? To make matters worse they have hired Paul Clement, who as solicitor general, argued in the Heller case that the government should still have the power to regulate certain classes of firearms (i.e. NFA).

From my limited view of the law, it looks like Gura is attacking this issue on two fronts. The more traditional front gets us a win but that win would be somewhat self limiting, the second would be a grand slam for gun owners. It is the second that the NRA opposes and the reason why they asked the court for a portion of Gura’s allotted time.

In the interest of full disclosure I was a member of the NRA until I found out that they worked to tirelessly to kill the Heller case before joining at the last second when they realized that they couldn’t. It didn’t take them long to beat their chests over “their victory”.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/02/10/the-nra-muscles-into-mcdonald

The NRA Muscles into McDonald v. Chicago
“Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts” at the Supreme Court

Brian Doherty | February 10, 2010

McDonald v. Chicago, the Supreme Court case that will settle whether or not the Second Amendment applies to states and localities, is gearing up to radically challenge Court precedent when it comes to defending rights against state infringement.

Alan Gura, lawyer for the Chicago plaintiffs whose right to effectively defend their lives in their own homes has been abridged by the city’s ban on handgun possession, previously won 2008’s D.C. v. Heller, the case establishing that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess weapons against federal encroachment. Gura is responsible, then, for the rehabilitation and revival of one constitutional amendment already. In McDonald, rather than merely extending the Second’s reach, he is aiming to rehabilitate and revive the 14th Amendment as well.

However, the Supreme Court’s decision in late January to grant 10 of Gura’s 30 minutes of oral argument time to the National Rifle Association (NRA) seems likely to hurt chances that the Court will take the more dramatic route laid before them. The NRA isn’t a plaintiff in McDonald (though they were parties in an earlier version heard by the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, which combined separate challenges to Chicago’s gun bans), and the organization’s intent is to emphasize the more limited and traditional method of incorporating the Second Amendment against the states via the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.

To sum up a very complicated legal argument quickly, Gura’s McDonald briefs do not rely solely on the traditional due process method. He also argued that 14th Amendment’s Privileges or Immunities Clause was more clearly intended to accomplish such incorporation, in terms of both legal logic and history.

An early misstep in 14th Amendment jurisprudence back in 1873 effectively murdered that clause, however, despite the fact that its value to vindicate citizens’ rights against government encroachment is vast. The significance of the clause and the Slaughterhouse Cases that killed it were explained in a December Reason column.

If the the Privileges or Immunities Clause is restored to its original meaning—and pretty much all the relevant history from the 14th Amendment’s ratification proves it was meant to do more than just protect certain rights of national citizenship, contrary to the Slaughterhouse majority—American jurisprudence would become much more respectful of both unenumerated and enumerated rights. However, that very possibility makes lots of people who are otherwise rooting for Gura uncomfortable.

As Reason’s Damon Root summed up aptly, “The 14th Amendment was specifically designed and ratified to protect a sweepingly libertarian idea of self-ownership. That idea includes the right to acquire property, run a business, and buy and sell labor without unnecessary or improper interference by the government.”

Thus, if Gura wins on privileges or immunities grounds, it will open up the full richness of the 14th Amendment’s original meaning, which makes the stakes for a victory in McDonald far higher than just preventing states and localities from stopping citizens keeping guns in their homes. It is also worth remembering, as many gun rights advocates grumbled when Heller was decided, that whether the gun right protected by that case goes much beyond the use of commonly owned firearms for self-protection in the home is a matter for future courts to decide. If McDonald is won, on whatever grounds, expect the courts to swell with challenges to the dizzying variety of ways that localities restrict gun rights.

While Gura thinks the expansive power of the Privileges or Immunities Clause is great, lots of people on the right—who otherwise support extending the right to keep and bear arms to the states—don’t. (The NRA also offered an alternative argument based on the Privileges or Immunities Clause in a brief, but its explicit purpose in horning in on the oral arguments is to stress the Due Process Clause.) A representative summation of that sort of worry comes from Ken Klukowski at the conservative web site Townhall.com:

[the] libertarian activists behind McDonald openly explain that the reason they are pushing the Court to overrule Slaughter-House has nothing to do with guns. Instead, they want to advance a libertarian economic agenda, where federal judges could sit in judgment of state and local laws involving labor, employment, business regulations and other economic issues. Although the Constitution is silent on these matters, these activists want the courts to start declaring constitutional rights against such things, and using the power of the federal judiciary to strike down laws of this sort that the judges don’t like.

Gura fought for his right to argue his case his own way, explaining in a brief to the Court that the NRA’s request relied on “unjustified” speculation that he will somehow fail to argue on due process grounds as well—despite the fact that Gura did make such arguments. Yet Gura failed to convince the Court, and with no explanation the Court gave 10 minutes of Gura’s 30 minutes to the NRA and their (very respected) hired gun, Paul Clement. Clement, in his role as U.S. Solicitor General back in 2008, argued in Heller’s hearings for the Supreme Court to rein in any individual right contained in the Second Amendment at least enough to preserve laws like the federal machine gun ban. As a result, Clement’s Second Amendment bonafides are widely questioned.

Gura’s reply brief to Chicago shows a lawyer fully prepared to flay the pretty shoddy arguments advanced by his opponents from Chicago, which include arguing in effect that if we can imagine a civilized society that does not respect a certain right, then states shouldn’t be required to honor it. (Chicago also seems to believe, as Gura sums up wryly, that “ordered liberty” refers to “the government’s liberty to issue orders.”)

To legal scholars such as The Volokh Conspiracy’s Orin Kerr, who never believed the Supreme Court would seriously consider overturning Slaughterhouse, the Court giving the NRA time is further proof that a McDonald victory—which seems likely given that the Heller majority is still sitting on the bench—will certainly be on the less revolutionary due process grounds. Kerr writes that Gura’s Privileges or Immunities Clause arguments “will be more of a lively intellectual exercise than a likely basis for the Court’s decision.”

Legal scholar Josh Blackman makes an interesting case that, contra Kerr’s belief that the Court will take the less disruptive of precedent route to victory, the Court is on occasion willing to vindicate a plaintiff’s rights in a radical way even when a less radical way is open to them, particularly when lawyers try to force the Court’s hand, as in 1989’s Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

The history of conflict between the NRA and Gura dates back to Heller, when the gun rights organization, fearing a loss (or, in some interpretations, fearing a victory where it could not claim credit), attempted to stymie or take over the case for years before finally jumping on board as allies in the closing stretch. Gura is openly peeved that his strategy is being questioned and his time encroached on against his will. He is, he points out, willing and able to argue the due process justification for incorporation. But the reason he dedicates only 7 pages out of 73 to it is that—as he states in his opposition brief to the NRA’s move—he knew Due Process Clause arguments would be more familiar to the justices due to the very fact that they are the more traditional means to win incorporation. (When it comes to wondering who had proven themselves most competent to make a thorough due process argument, Blackman also points out the NRA failed in its brief to note the Glucksberg test, which was used in the 9th Circuit’s Nordyke decision that did recognize Second Amendment incorporation on due process grounds.)

As Gura complained in The Washington Post, the NRA is “not bringing anything substantive to the argument. The NRA is principally interested in taking credit and fundraising.”

In that same Post story, the Cato Institute’s Ilya Shapiro, who has been sharply critical of the NRA’s encroachment on Gura’s arguments, was paraphrased on how the NRA/Gura conflict exemplified “the differing approaches [of] ‘gun nuts,’ whose sole interest is a protection of Second Amendment rights, [and] ‘constitution nuts,’ who think the case offers a chance to reassert the importance of the privileges-or-immunities argument.”

Some forces in the gun rights community, such as one of its oldest warriors and scholars, David Hardy, refuse to take sides between the NRA and Gura. Instead, Hardy applauds both arguments and both arguers, and begs the gun rights community to stop encouraging dissension: “They’re going into the fight of their lives, no OUR lives, and don’t need the distractions. We can all engage in internecine battles after oral argument, or better yet, the decision. For now they need to concentrate. Bottom line: there is no bad way to win a case.”

This is admirably ecumenical, but it elides the larger possibilities at issue in the Privileges or Immunities Clause argument (which is exactly what many in the gun rights world want): that, as Gura writes in his reply brief, “applying constitutional text as plainly intended by the Framers and understood by the ratifying public possesses high intrinsic value. Nowhere is that value higher than when enforcing basic national civil rights standards.” That is the opportunity that could be lost if the NRA’s arguing time means that the Supreme Court wants to incorporate on the old Due Process Clause grounds rather than the truly radical, yet also truly original, Privileges or Immunities Clause grounds.

Senior Editor Brian Doherty is author of This is Burning Man (BenBella), Radicals for Capitalism (PublicAffairs) and Gun Control on Trial (Cato Institute).

There is a case coming up in which the plaintiff was charged with unlawful possession of a pistol (I do not have any details).

This individual’s lawyer is arguing that the state’s are over stepping their authority as the right to bear arms is guaranteed at the federal level and their is no provision in the 2nd amendment giving individual states the right to arbitrate this right.

While I do not believe that gun ownership should be unregulated I do find the merits of the argument interesting.

I do not find that surprising given your state of residence.

Do tell which laws and regulations felons follow when arming themselves?

I see where you’re going but define ‘felon’ for me. There are plenty of stupid things this government says are illegal and plenty of illegal things this government says are felonies.

Do tell which laws and regulations felons follow when arming themselves?

No Flippen Stuff!!! HELLO!!!

Laws are only for, you guessed it, “Law Abiding Citizens”. Just because you “Outlaw” something, doesn’t make it go away. Has ANYTHING that has been outlawed ever gone away? The more laws we create, the more ??? we need?
I’ve often wondered who exactly is behind some of these laws of this nation.

I’ve never been overly fond of the NRA; there is ample evidence including the contents of the original thread that make me question the motives of members within that august organization.

While I’d like to have firearms unregulated it’s not feasible. I’d like to see the current process apply to those who have been in the penal system (yes, they deserve the right to defend their lives once they’ve paid their price to society). They should be fingerprinted and registered. The rest of us should not require anything but proof of successful training (and I hesitate to demand that but we all KNOW that 97% NEVER use their tools in any capacity).

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39619

The NRA is run by career lobbyists, does it shock anyone that they don’t want the need to lobby to go away?

I think there is too much regulation, regardless of the product. Would it be so bad - having tried regulation and found it lacking - to try a world without regulation?

M_P

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=modern_pirate;586430]The NRA is run by career lobbyists, does it shock anyone that they don’t want the need to lobby to go away?
I think there is too much regulation, regardless of the product. Would it be so bad - having tried regulation and found it lacking - to try a world without regulation?
M_P

Can’t argue that at all. Job security.

Define that statement please.

Not that hard to understand…

If lots of regulation doesn’t work, try not having regulation…understand?

While the NRA does a lot of good, they’re all too often responsible for some severely misleading things aka fear mongering.

I was going to join the NRA as a lifetime member some time ago for access to a few shooting ranges, I decided to buy more ammo instead.

On the regulation of firearms, if a person who commits a felony and serves his or her time and is allowed to rejoin society, their rights should be restored. Isn’t that the point of prison? To serve you debt to society?

Why should one civil right be more regulated than another? Or regulated in different ways? Should speech be regulated, require training, or more specifically the technology of speech regulated to the point of banning certain technologies?

If civil liberties are regulated then how much of a liberty is that? I think we should error on the side of liberty and recognize liberty is not about guaranteeing our safety, or the efficiency or comfort of government agents.

Since there is little to no risk of the need to lobby to protect our gun rights going away anytime soon I find the idea that the NRA is deliberately sabotaging the process a little tinfoil hat.

I agree with the guy near the end of the article who basically stated we ought to wait until we have won to start killing each other over the loot.

With many laws, there is tyranny. With no laws, there can be no freedom.

Believe it or not, I don’t want people with unregistered machine guns running around America, or easily accessible machine guns to bought at your local gun dealer at the drop of a DL. They true bad guys are going to get them, and we really don’t want them to have an easier time to do so. But in the same breath, I’d like to have semi-auto, high capacity rifles. If SHTF the next day, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t take much to make em; full auto. After all, the semi-auto is just stopping the weapon from going full.

Same thing that I really don’t want a felon having a fire arm as soon as they are out. The percentages of “reformed” convicts committing crimes again is rather high. There is a process to reinstate your liberties from a felony conviction. It takes time, but there is a process. So lets keep the checks at the dealers. It makes us look better when some gang-banger is on his third run-in with the law gets a stolen gun illegally and they didn’t grab from legal means. (Kinda that “I told you so” stuff we can send back to the Brady bunch).

However, lets keep the gun show loop-hole in effect. Getting a nice weapon without papers keeps the government looking for one less gun if, or when, the decide they are to protect us.

Having a gun while at a bar isn’t a cool thing. For me, guns and alcohol don’t mix. But a gun in your car parked at the bar is cool. That’s in case someone follows you out with the girl they wanted.

As for the Chicago hand-gun ban: Daley is going to get it on this one. All his gun restrictions have hurt Chicago rather than help (course, we expected anything less, right). There is a long history in this country of jurisdiction, jurisprudence, and nullification, which nearly threw us into a Civil War prior to the 1860’s (Andrew Jackson and John C. Calhoun anyone?). It’s that struggle between state’s rights and what the feds want to do. Some has been good, and a lot has gone bad. But when it arrives at the issue of the Bill of Rights, that should be the supreme law, unless the supreme court says otherwise, and let us hope that never happens at out present and near future state. This whole argument has been the meat and potatoes of the American Experiment and will until the republic does fall, and hopefully it won’t.

But clear disregard of the essential Rights in the name of emotional outcry over something that no government throughout history has ever been able to quell will cause the republic to fall under its own weight, regardless of the moral fabric that it tries to keep sown together for our safety. Trying to control the populace has lead to the down fall of many countries and civilization while in the pursuit to upset the trend of Social Darwinism. Yes, the strong do need to survive. It is only natural in this world, no matter the improvements man has made to work less. Melting the tools we need to better our survival is like asking a swordsmith to make a katana with only his hands. The metal will have to go into the fire. How will he pull it out?

What it seems that people like Daley loose sight of is trust in the better part of society, more importantly we Americans. Through history, we see ourselves as a nation built on traditions through principles. Yes, most of it is a Christian back-ground, that bit is inescapable able. But yet, we see atheists and agnostics keeping to a moral code that primarily hasn’t been steeped in religion. And many our staunch second amendment supporters. What is seen is a society that is anchored to a well made foundation that has had to be cared for through our faults and mistakes. It has lasted for over 200 years; why begin to judge it now and let the trust of the common man go due to shallow cracks and chips in the concrete.

Just check the footings, adjust, repair, dry, move on.

Whats the major difference between a FA M4 and a SA AR15? Other than one requires less manipulation of the finger. With a piece of rubber the same rate of fire can be accomplished with the SA.

So why limit one over the other, because ones scarier perhaps?

And there is no gun show loop hole, it’s a creation of the press. There’s always been private sales between individuals it’s not a amazing overlooked loophole that congress left in the laws. =p

How old are you?

Having a gun while at a bar isn’t a cool thing. For me, guns and alcohol don’t mix.

So, you trust me to drink and then not drive but not to enter a bar armed and not drink? If we can’t have guns in bars then bars shouldn’t have parking lots, because people are sure as hell more likely to drink and drive then they are to get involved in drunken shoot-outs.

Mauser KAR98K, I have never seen a post with more contradictions in my lifetime, good job.

Excellent. :cool:

most people cant even control an auto, you could argue that semi is more deadly than auto due to its control-ability. Theres a reason why M16s were changed from automatic to burst, cuz it was a gigantic waste of ammo.