Is reliability still a real issue

General Firearms Shotguns
1

So, for the longest time I always bought into the the idea that a defensive shotgun should be semi for reliability/simplicity purposes, but I recently started attending 3-gun matches using my buddies Benelli, reading into it, etc… Semi shotguns like the Benelli’s these days are shooting 50 round stages, hundreds and hundreds of shells a match, probably thousands+ over they “careers” and the number one thing guys look for is always reliability. With semi-auto shotguns achieving this kind of reliability (or maybe they always have?), and the addition of the benefits of more firepower and softer recoil, is pump action still the “default” choice?

(Disclosure: I do not own a shotgun, still researching, but do have some experience with military and civilian shotguns alike)

2

I would say that even though the benelli’s are more reliable than most auto loaders, I would still likely take a 870 as a “fighting gun” the rugged reliability simple to use and maintain takes the cake for me. Besides a good shotgunner can work a pump quite fast.

3

I would say it depends primarily on budget.

If I have $1,000 or so to spend, then sure, default would be a semi.

If I don’t, or don’t want to spend that kind of cash, then I can find a good reliable pump for under $200.

To me, that is what makes shotguns great, a reliable sample can be found for a really good price, and practice ammo runs about the same as 9mm. It is cheap to buy, and cheap to run.

4

I read people beating up on the Mossberg 930 SPX quite a bit and it pisses me off. When you buy a new car the owners manual tells you not to drive it hard for X amount of miles. Kind of like automobiles, firearms become more reliable (run better) after a break in period. I tell anyone that will listen to me that your defensive weapons need a minimum of 200-300 (sometimes more, sometimes less) rounds put through it before you should use it to defend your life and expect any dependability from it.

The first thing I did with my 930 was clean it, lube it, and then over the course of several hours put 300 rounds through it, while cleaning it lightly in-between strings of fire. It now has 500 rounds though it and hasn’t experienced a single failure of any sort. I’d run my 930 against any other shotgun at this time. It is hands down as reliable as any pump action shotgun, and it’s a hell of a lot faster.

The key is to mate the moving parts so instead of working against one another, they move in unison. They other key is to run quality ammunition. I don’t skimp on the food for her, nor should you. When you try to save a few dollars on cheap ammunition, you are simply playing the odds with your life.

People say Wolf ammunition is good to go, I don’t disagree with that statement, with a few caveats; European, Russian (Eastern Block), and Chinese weapons. It’s fine ammunition for a weapon like an AK variant, because an AK’s tolerances are generous, like many other WWI & WWII era weapons. That same principle doesn’t apply to 99 percent of the guns produced today because they are built to tighter tolerances on modern equipment.

5

I still would not say just because budget allows one should get a auto loader. I agree there are many good “fighting” semi auto shotguns, but for the average person a good pump sill serve them better than the need. Honestly even leo/mil a good pump is more than enough. Auto loaders are great for waterfowl and turkeys.
I just watched an 1100$ auto loader go down price did not help him at all.

6

Defensive guns should run from round 1. My Benelli M2 has worked every time the trigger has been pulled. I can handle a break in period on a match gun or a fun gun. But if its for defensive use it needs to be reliable from day 1.
Pat

7

If I had to fight with a shotgun. (prefer a rifle) I would take a Benelli M2 over my 870’s. No matter how good you area with a pump you can shoot an auto faster. Plus the auto lets you know when your out of shells and you don’t get that damn click noise when you expected a bang. I tried to keep up in three gun with a pump in the begining but there is no comparision and I am a pump shooter. Where pumps have a place is firing less lethal rounds and breaching.
Pat

8

I never stated it didn’t run from round one, I merely opined that running the gun until you feel confident about the guns reliability is a necessity. For me I have a process, everyone’s will vary, some have none. But, I will never take any firearm straight out of the box and put it directly into personal protection mode. Like I said, doing that will win you a shiny box from Mr. Darwin.

9

I think other folks have effectively touched on my feelings about this issue:

I would rather have an auto (preferably a Benelli) than a pump. But if you cannot afford an auto, a pump is an excellent option (after an AR and a Glock or M&P).

And, yes, a pump is simpler and more reliable than an auto. But, then again, a lever- or bolt-action is simpler and more reliable than an auto-loading rifle. Like the rifle, though, for a general purpose weapon, I’ll take an auto before the others. That’s not to say the others are useless or poor options, but they are better suited for specialized roles (competition, breaching/less lethal, dangerous game hunting, precision long-range shooting, extreme lightweight guns, &c.) than the autos. And the autos, in turn, are better suited toward general usage (defense and hunting).

I’m not concerned about the speed of a pump, lever, or bolt: A skilled user can make fresh spent cartridges nearly as fast with them as an unskilled user can with an auto. But the manipulations do concern me, particularly given that the overwhelming majority of end users will buy the weapon, play with it for a day or two, shoot it at the range once or twice, it at all, and then throw it under the bed, in the closet, or into the gunsafe and then never look upon it again.

If I were going to utilize a shotgun for combat, I would take a Benelli M4, then an M1 or M2, before any pump, and a good auto-loading carbine (AR, AK, M1, &c.) before either.

10

Amen to this!!!

It never stops to amaze me how some people will accept a weapon malfunctioning just because its new and not broken in.

I think we would all agree some weapon systems will work better after some work is done to them, but that is recognized from the very beginning. After the work, the weapon still needs to be fully tested and if worked on right no malfunctions occur.

The same goes for shotguns. The only drawback to the SA shotgun IMO as far as reliability goes is it’s pickyness with light loads, but even then knowing what type of ammo runs through your gun is all part of the know your gun big picture.

Personally I’m a SA shotgun guy, but with the right training and motivation a solid shooter can do some impressive things with either system.

11

I get the argument that a pump is less likely to mess up in terms of pure mechanical reliability. The operator is in control of whether or not that next round chambers, not gas pressure or inertia.

But pumps also introduce the possibility of short-stroking.

Is it the gun’s fault? No.

Is it a training issue? Sure.

But does it matter when the next round really needs to be chambered? I don’t think so.

I sometimes see pumps recommended for people who don’t have time or motivation to train. The justification is their simplicity and reliability. My point is these are the people most likely to short-stroke the pump under stress. For them, I’m not sure it’s reliable at all.

12

there are some very reliable semi’s out there for sure. One thing I always notice when my club has combat shotgun matches (this is with people that run 11-87’s primarily but some benellis and others too) is many are talking about ammo- I need to run a load that goes at least xyz velocity/ abc dram equiv or my gun won’t function. The pumps can be subject to malfunctions from short stroking of course, but the ability to have more ammo options- like low recoil slugs and buck shot and cheap walmart target loads- gives an edge to the pump as a more versatile platform.

13

The pump can run all kinds of ammo. However semis are better than people give them credit for. My M2 runs ammo with 2 3/4 dram and reduced recoil slugs and most reduced recoil buck.
pat

14

Ammo is a significant variable in semis, less so to irrelevant in pumps. Some semi systems will function across a broader range of performance than others. Semis can be made quirky with various mods.

If using a shotgun, I prefer a pump for its raw versatility without a lot of bother. I need them to work with low impulse specialty munitions, light bird shot, etc, and I cannot count on semis to do so.

15

It is interesting in that semi-auto rifles…such as AR-15s, are fully accepted as a “fighting” rifle but yet semi-auto shotguns…well…for some reason, lots of people get all funny about relying on them for home defense, etc. Shouldn’t we all be using revolvers too instead of semi-auto pistols?

I’ve taken a number of shotgun courses…2 and 4 days in length, using both a good reliable Benelli pump and a good reliable FNH SLP. I do not claim to be an expert…and I don’t claim that my shotgun is a “fighting” shotgun. I write software for a living and would bet that the majority of other folks don’t rely on their rifle or shotgun for “fighting” for a living either. I see a notable gap between firearms used for fighting and self-defense.

That being said, I’ll agree that a pump shotgun in the hands of a good and well practiced shooter will do a great job of taking care of business. At the same time, so will a semi-auto. The difference, IMO, is that many folks don’t commit to the necessary practice to become good with their pump…I mean good with their pump under pressure and stress.

I’ve short stroked my pump enough times in shoot houses and timed range drills to realize that even with the amount of practice I do, there is a always a chance it will happen…and it does. I’ve seen folks much higher up the shooting chain than me do it too. The less you practice, the more often it will happen, especially when the stress is high and the adrenalin is pumping. On the other hand, I’ve yet to ever short stroke my semi-auto…regardless of stress level or adrenalin surge.

As I said, I have both types of shotguns in my gun safe. IMO, a person who can’t put in the necessary practice (at higher stress levels) is better served by quality semi-auto. I say quality only because if I were recommending a pump, I would say quality pump shotgun too.

I had the pleasure of attending a 4 day advanced tactical shotgun course this past December. Of the 13 students in attendance, I don’t recall if any were shooting pumps…everyone was shooting an auto-loader if I remember correctly. We each put about 1,000 rounds of 12 gauge down range along with about 300 rounds of handgun. I recall zero breakdowns. Compare that to the 2 or 3 broken pump guns I typically see in the 2 or 4 day introductory shotgun courses I’ve attended, where pumps outnumber semi-autos about 8~10 to 1. I’ve never seen an auto-loader break at a training course I’ve attended. I’ve also never seen a $300 auto-loader in the course.

In summary…I personally believe that a shooter with limited stress induced practice time is better served by a good auto-loader, especially if that person is going to be “fighting” with that shotgun. (not too likely, IMO)

16

I think semi auto shotguns got a bad repuation mostly due to the Remington autoloaders. 1100’s and 1187’s suck. You see a lot break down in three gun. Benelli’s however run and run and run. It also comes from people shooting really light loads and expecting their autos to work. That is like handloading your semi auto pistol with loads well below spec and expecting it to run. I still use a pump for work because of my need to use speciality rounds for bear hazing. (ie cracker shells that launch a projectile that explodes near the bear causing it to run in theory) These shells are way to light to run an action on an auto. With the pump if something goes wrong like the bear runs at me instead of away I am just one pump away from a slug. (this has happened to me before) If I were going to use a shotgun as a fighting gun primarliy I would go with my Benelli M2 or a tactical version of my R&R Saiga. But personally for fighting guns I much prefer rifles and carbines.
Pat

17

>>But pumps also introduce the possibility of short-stroking.<<

For those who either teach shotgun classes, or have been through a lot of them as students - With modern SA shotguns as a a comparison… Do you see more problems with the SA actions failing, or with the operators short-stroking their pumps?

john

18

In matches I see more short stocking in pumps than semi’s failing.
Pat

19

Pat, you need not be so reserved in expressing your opinion. :smiley:

Seriously, what do you see breaking in the 1100/11-87s? I’ve had a 11-87 for about 20 years and though I do not have thousands of rounds through it nor have I ever attended a gruelling shotgun course with it, it has never failed me. I am actually in the process of doing some mods with it so any insight on the specifics of those break downs is appreciated.

On another note, I think it also comes down to expectations. If I were to use a short-barrelled shotgun for home defense, the ability to digest any kind of ammo or go thousands (or even hundreds) of rounds without cleaning would be non-factors. The ability to shoot it accurately with quick follow up - using loads intended for such applications - would be of primary importance to me. If a running gun battle ensued and I was still alive after emptying the SG, I’d reach for the AR.

Regardless of brand, a SA will always require greater care in maintenance and ammo selction. But at least in a home defense scenario where the action would likely be fast and the round count limited, I’d feel more confortable with the SA (even a Remington).

20

Generally the gas seals. There are some sayings in three gun about Remington 1100’s and 1187’s. First you need two to finish a match because one will crap out on you. 2. If your remington goes down there will be 20 people there that know how to fix it because they have been through allt he issues as well. I have personally seen more Remington autos stop in a match or half malfunctions than any other brand. With Benelli’s it very rare. Like I said earlier I have only cleaned my M2 once or twice in a few years and it keeps working.
Pat