Is our government model out of date?

General General Discussion
1

Gents, just simple thinking out loud on my part.

I’m conservative, I’m libertarian, I believe in the constitution and I generally have an “orginal intent” style interpretation of it. What I am wondering though is if it may be out of date. I don’t meen the freedoms it protects or the pricniples behind it, but just the government structure that we have or rather, are supposed to have.

Specially I mean the local-state-federal dynamic, I’m not sure it’s the best for the modern world anymore. Today I can be anywhere in the country in 6 hours. I can communicate instantly to anyone, anywhere in the world whenever I want. With those abilities, is it really the right answer that a mega issue like abortion can vary state to state?

I’m not saying I want the federal government to decide, thats the last thing I want, but maybe we need a system where the states can make decisions that become national law. Yes, I realize this is called a constitutional amendment but that’s a pretty serious event and I’m not totally sure it can even happen anymore. I would almost think that we could replace the federal senate and house with the state congresses. Something like abortion gets voted on by each state, majority verdict becomes the national law.

Obviously this isn’t a perfect system, it might even suck, I’m just spitballing.

But I think the system we have has trouble keeping up with the times, and it has left a lot of room for local and state governments to infringe on rights more so than the feds. Why can I carry a weapon in washington but not california, or get an abortion in one state but not the next state over. Gay marriage, income vs sales tax, nfa items, etc etc. In 1776 trying to move from New Jersey to Arizona would probably get you killed but today I could pack up, relocate, and establish residency in another state by the end of the day. I’m not sure that allowing the laws to vary so much is practical anymore.

In addition to that, there are so many local and state laws that are ridiculously out of date. I’m sure I can find a city where doggy style is illegal or driving barefoot is. Yea that may have worked when you were born, lived, and died in the same city but does it work today?

I wonder if it would work better if our constition, while still protecting the same rights it always has, were modified to bring the states in line with eachother and made us more one nation and less 50 states, and I think that could be done by empowering the states to make national decisions rather than a ridiculously out of control federal government like we have.

Am I insane?

2

The states gave away their right to have a part in Federal law making with the ratification of the 17th Amendment.

3

Another thought I had is if this model is or will contribute to the divide in this nation. While it used to be your only option was to fight for change in the government have, it’s way easier today to just move to where the government you want already is. I already know that I will not live in a state that has shitty gun laws once I retire from the military and just like that is an important issue to me, so is abortion, gay marriage, taxes, etc… to others. If all the gay people flock to the gay marriage states, all the gun owners flock to the pro-gun states, liberals and conservatives, on and on, does every state end up becoming a no-contest state? Could it not ultimately end up that every single state votes the same way every single time? What if that happens and the majority of states are left leaning and win every single election and vote? How long before it destroys everything the constitution stood for?

4

It’s not the MODEL that is outdated it’s the outright collusion, corruption, the twisted secrecy and agenda of those aligned & involved that is the problem. Do the homework & research. We are being usurped from within by treasonous acts unconstitutional acts & conduct from secretive socities members plain & simple. If you don’t know or do not understand take the time to do the research etc. It’s all out there and OSINT.

It’s elected people not following the Constitution and changing it at their whim as an abuse of power no doubt…BY gaming and stacking the deck etc…

The EO Presidential powers having been overstepped is HOW we got here coupled w/ CONGRESS selling out the American people. etc.

5

OP-

Woodrow Wilson made the same claim about the Constitution being outta date…then he acted upon it.

6

The reason our country has it’s problems is because power has been taken AWAY from the states. Everything is starting to be ruled from one tiny office, 3,000 miles away, out of touch with reality and with those who it subjects to its rules. Giving that same bloated, inefficient, fear-mongering administration more power is not the answer.

Going back to the Constitution, the only role the Federal government had was to create and maintain a military for national defense and to protect and enforce the liberties on the individual should the States try to take them away. Instead, we have a Federal government telling us what we can and can’t do and most of the States are having to fight for their rights, while others are stealing their citizens’ rights with the approval of the Federal government.

You cannot take our country in its current form and say that the government model does work. Our government model works when it falls in line with the original, unadulterated Constitution. When you start adding laws that defy liberty, adding alphabet agencies that serve as an unchecked fourth branch of the legal system, and have a Federal government telling the people that their concern is gay marriage while we’re in the middle of an economic recession, of course you’re going to have a dysfunctional government.

It’s not the fault of the government model, it’s the fault of the traitors who have refused to follow the Constitution and it’s our fault for not getting them out of power.

7

For every system, there are those whose sole purpose is to game it. The gamers of the system have exponentially increased in efficiency and numbers in the past few decades. The system is simply not designed to handle it. Our once simple, effective and in some ways elegant system of government is now a mockery.

News flash, you’re not going to get rid of the gamers. The only way to shrug them off is to completely change the game. They’ll eventually come back though. All you ever buy is time. How much depends on how determined you are.

8

I wouldn’t say it was taken away. The states have passed amendments giving the Feds rights they used to have such as the Senate being the states voice in Congress. The House was supposed to be for the people not both the House and Senate.

It amazes me FDR was elected FOUR times, and had to be the most tyrannical president in our history. Most of the BS we deal with today was started under his rule.

And what the Founders gave us was not perfect, and they knew that but they put the ball in our hands to be the check and balance against all of government. We deserve the government we get, and over time American’s have failed to keep people out of office who are there to expand government and decrease liberty. Simple as that.

9

Newsflash: That’s what the Second Amendment was for.

10

Exactly. An old roomate of mine was a cop and told me that most Highway patrol guys only stop you over 80MPH. So the the defacto speed limit becomes 80 not 65 as posted.

This is what has happened to the Government. The only difference being that people still know the laws really says 65.

Ever since Alexander Hamilton was appointed to Washington’s cabinet, there has been a concerted effort by some in this country to twist the Constitution into something it is not; but the way they would like it to be. This has snowballed since then with major pushes after the Civil War and in the early 1900’s.

Hell, law schools teach “Case Law” in Constitutional Law classes rather than the original intent and history of the Constitution.

If people would educate themselves about the original intent of the Constitution and understand the debates that formed it, they would realize not just how far we have deviated, but would appreciate how brilliant and MODERN it really is.

Our model of Government is the most perfect every created and truly exceptional in the history of mankind. Our politicians and citizens just need to read the “rules”.

11

ditto the others mostly

its not the system its the people

analogy
its like saying do we need to rethink cars since to many drunk drivers are killing people ?
no we need to clean house of drunk drivers and truly make them pay and not give them a pass

12

The sadddest and really most perplexing thing is that the the Republican Presidential candidates and leaders don’t seem to be able to make the connection that the current federal system is broken and put tht into a lucid arguement or plan.

Yes, Washington is broken- the issue is not to fix it but rather change the venue of where public policy takes place by forcing power to the state level. At the same time, I agree with the TEA Party, but like most liberterian based systems it tries to replace something (very powerful) with nothing. That is never going to be a viable long term strategy. What the Republicans need to argue is that we get crap for all the taxes we pay and that we’ll never get the value out a one-size-fits-all federal system. Let Obama defend the current, broken Fed based system while the Republicans can be the party of ‘Change’.

13

My government class in HS spent about 15 minutes on the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers. I read most of them over time but need to go back and read them more thoroughly again.

And I do agree most do not have any clue why things were done the way they were, and just accept the current system as whats ‘legal’ so they start off with a false pretense. Like saying the EPA is unconstitutional…instead we debate what role the EPA should have instead of why we have it in the first place or if its even constitutional.

But I think the most telling thing is even that Obama even has a chance to get elected. If we really had a freedom loving independent populace it would not even be an issue in the first place. But we have a huge free shit class and a liberal party growing more intense everyday.

14

well said Belmont31R

15

Before you decide if our government model is out of date you have to define out government model. First, there are five branches of the Federal Government. The Executive, the Judicial, the Legislative the Media and the Bureaucratic. The Judicial branch is supreme over the other branches because they said so. The Legislative branch passes suggestions which the Bureaucratic branch uses (or not) to guide their lawmaking. The Judicial branch may also engage in lawmaking through decisions as can the Executive through Executive Orders. The Executive consists of the President, Vice President and Cabinet Secretaries who are confirmed by the Senate. The Cabinet Secretaries are ceremonial positions, the real power is vested in the various Czars who are not confirmed by anyone. The basic law is called the Constitution which no one pays attention to except where it can be misapplied to increase the power of the Judicial or Bureaucratic branches. The Media is the propaganda organ of the Federal Government though it’s employees don’t draw paychecks from the Treasury.

16

I didn’t start this thread to talk about how fucked up the government is, nor do I need to be told to go read the constitution.

I’m posing the question that if things ran the way there were supposed to is it still the best model, specifically in the day and age where I can get anywhere in this country in a matter of hours and talk to anyone instantly, is allowing state and local laws to vary so widely still practical? Gay marriage, abortion, tax codes, gun control, etc… does is it still work to say “the states decide for themselves” anymore?

I’m not talking about Wilson or FDR, or unconstitutional alphabet agencies. If it still ran as intended, is it still the best model for the modern world?

17

Yes. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. :frowning:

18

Strangely enough, this is exactly the same thing a socialist Marxist would ask.

19

Your sounding like Woodrow Wilson. This country went from a 3rd world nation to the most powerful nation on Earth in about 150 years. This is unprecedented in human history.

What other model of government has that track record? What would be better?

If you read history you can see that very little is new in human society. The issues today have been rehashed in other forms over and over again.

The concept behind state sovereignty is that it keeps power from concentrating with the few; an idea consistent with most of the Constitution. What in our modern world suggests we should consolidate the government? That would not be progressive but regressive.

20

When someone puts such a caveat at the beginning of a post it safe to assume that what is about to follow is going to be consistent with none of those claims.

What followed in your post is eerily similar to the kind of “change” posed by Marxist statists.

The only thing wrong with our system is that it has been perverted and twisted over time by control freaks. Attempting to adopt that perversion to advance a political agenda that might be palatable to “us” would be dangerous and a grotesque and egregious violation of the very liberties we value.

Am I insane?

No. Horribly misguided? Yes.