When I first learned to really shoot with the Marine Corps, mine was one of the last classes at TBS to qualify on the rifle range with iron sights. Since then, I have only ever had to shoot with the ACOG, but always put a lot of value in knowing how to adjust for elevation and windage. With my personal weapons, want to maintain that capability and I have spent a lot of time lately looking at some of the options for backup iron sights with adjustable elevation, and thinking through how to translate those sight settings to a 308’s trajectory.
That all said, I’ve wondered why so few elevation adjustable iron sights seem to be in use (cost and complication aside). There are a few explanations I can think of: the chief of which (concerning iron sights specifically) being the use of holdover techniques (which I can see being simple, but only practical to a certain range). For any reason, I’m just wondering what other shooters think: Does anyone out there still adjust for elevation? Is it worth it to you to pay a little extra for irons with elevation adjustment? Does anyone (or even me, to be honest) need to shoot out far enough to where holdover isn’t a better option anyway?
This is just a guess, but perhaps it has to do with space while maintaining durability. The four elevation-adjustable options that I know of are
Standard A2/A3 carry handle
Stand-alone A2-Style sight
MaTech Adjustable Flip-up rear sight (which has mixed reviews throughout this site)
Wilson Combat Tactical Flip-Up Detachable Rear Sight
I do not have one (I’m sure you can find some info here on M4C), but the Wilson seems to combine the best of both worlds: it is a space-saving flip-up, but it’s also elevation adjustable. Other than that, I’m sure there are more technical answers that have to do with engagement distances, zeroing distances, etc.; but I’ll leave my opinion out of those.
I was a range instructor during the transition from qualifying with iron sights to RCOs, so I feel your pain. At the time I got out ('13), BUIS still weren’t a standard-issue item. Only IAR gunners were getting them.
Thanks for the replies: I actually didn’t know that magpul sight was adjustable for elevation.
So far it seems like the only people who adjust elevation are in the same boat as me: Marines who learned to do it once. And if it was good enough for Chesty, then it’s good enough for me.
Thanks to above for links and options, I wasn’t aware of any flip up elevation adjustable and was going to settle on another set focusing on holdovers. Seems like I have some reviews to read so I can choose for my new 16" mid length build.
Your front post is about 10MOA in size. At ranges beyond 300 metres the front post is over twice the width of an average human torso. Target ID becomes challenging and the shot far more. Yes it can be done, but it is far from practical. Keep in mind most rifles have BUIS as in BACK UP Iron Sights, not primary iron sights. They’re not intended as dedicated replacements.
Before optics were issued, iron sights were the primary sighting system. Up until several years ago, every Marine graduating boot camp had to use irons out to 500 yards. I’m not saying they’re better than optics, I’m just saying that taking shots beyond 300 meters is feasible; so in a worst case scenario, why not have irons that assist?
Nothing really substantial to add, but to confirm…
I got out in 94, so never saw a RDS or optic on a rifle in the service, ever.
My rifles all have the $60 magpul BUIS rear and I’ve had good groups out to 200 yards. That is using Both the standard front sight block post and the magpul $40 BUIS (which looks 30-40% wider than standard). I’ve been thinking the same, why not get a range adjustable rear.
For defensive shooting, The issue raised above is legitimate: civilian shots farther than 100 meters (maybe even closer) raise problems justifying the shot. Plus target ID is even more critical.
For target shooting out to 500 meters, I’d get the elevation adjustable rear sight. Many articles on CMP competition shooting equipment for ar15’s.
They make it hard to be complacent about marksmanship. Paris island. Rah…
I still teach an irons course, but do admit that most are guys with fixed elevation rear sights. I do like to shoot at distance and dial from time to time and I do prefer fixed irons on a non magnified set up. So the rear I use either the LMT rear or I use chopped carry handles.
As far as the discussion of the Marines, while I don’t have massive exposure in numbers, I have been training select members or units from the iron qual years and now into the optic qual years. I will have to admit that IME the quality of long range marksmanship in those who I have experience with seems to have declined. Having said that as a whole, the Marine Corps still has the better marksmanship.
I am not nor have I ever been a service member so I can’t speak as to best practices where combat training is concerned. With that said, in my opinion everyone should learn the fundamentals of basic marksmanship, to include basic sight adjustment for zero and for range. By learning how and why you make those adjustments you gain a much better understanding of your firearms and cartridge. Knowing that information seems as if it would allow one to understand even holdover or holdunder much more completely.
Then again I may be biased by many years as a competitive shooter.
To be clear, I’m not trying to pose the question of whether adjustable elevation iron sights are superior to glass: I totally get the advantages and disadvantages there. What I’m asking about here is purely adjustable elevation vs. holdover for irons.
With the point that was made about adjusting elevation not being really necessary out to around 200m, I think that’s what I was trying to articulate when I said that I’m not sure I even have the occasion to adjust for elevation (aside from annual trips to Stone Bay, there’s not a lot of opportunity to shoot long here). It does sound like there’s a few more guys out there than I thought who still adjust elevation.
Thanks for the suggestions on sights, too. Right now I’m looking at chopping a carry handle, if I can find the right kind (height) at a good price. It seems like only a few weeks/months ago, they were a dime a dozen…
But speaking of sights, a question for anyone who knows: HK style diopter sights; are they adjustable for elevation? Or does the turn of the drum only change the aperture to the prescribed range? Thanks for anyone who’s tracking.
Tarasdad, I think we’re on the same page. I can’t say I have your perspective on seeing guys who never had to learn to adjust for elevation, and what their understanding of the round’s trajectory might be (it could be sound for all I know), but I am glad, at least, that I learned it first.
I think at one point I was a hardline “you have to learn irons before you use glass” type guy, but after a thread on here dragged that idea out, I’m not so sure. What I am sure of is a new shooter needs to learn to shoot irons at some point.
Ok, cool, then you might be the right guy to ask: anything special a guy would need to know for chopping a carry handle? I understand that there are commercial and military spec heights, but that’s about it.
I dial up irons with some regularity. Practicality is pretty low for civilian purposes, but it’s nice to be able to make a hit at 500. Holding over at 500 with some sort of fixed irons would be very difficult since you’d cover a man sized target. (unless you had a pretty good wind hold)
The H&K diopter sight can be adjusted for elevation by use of either the special tool from H&K or by use of needlenose pliers. The tool is pushed down on the top of the sight to engage two pawls which frees the elevation screw to be adjusted. As there are no clicks or markings, it’s not an exact process. Once sighted in, the only further adjustments are for range.
The diopter sight can be adjusted for windage while sighting in by loosening the clamping screw on top and then turning the windage screw on the right side. As you might imagine, it’s not an exact process.
Once sighted in, no further user adjustments for windage on standard sights.
Ok, I see. I understood that there’s a sort of “permanent” elevation adjustment to zero the sights (since the front post is stationary at the geometric center of the reticle). I just didn’t know if the rotation of the drum changed the rear aperture and elevation (i.e. the different sized apertures correspond to an elevation change at the same given range), or if it only changed the size of the aperture. It seems the later is the case.
Disclaimer: I have no experience with YHM, nor did I take the time to look up reviews anywhere. I just wanted show you that you don’t necessarily have to put the work into chopping a handle.
Thanks for the link: I knew that LMT makes something similar, but in short, I was looking for the less expensive (read: I’m a cheapskate) way out. I remember seeing (or I’m imagining) used Colt carry handles going for around $30 a while ago (or am I crazy? It may have just as well been something less reputable, and I just didn’t pay attention because I wasn’t interested at the time). Otherwise I would either go this route or pony up for a KAC 200-600 micro.
