I agree completely Symmetry.
Hope you get better soon, Tiny. It’s amazing just out damaging a gun shot wound can be to the body once a surgeon finally gets in there and gets to work on you. Thank God it wasn’t a rifle wound.
How deep, and where they are.
I’ve seen firsthand how important shot placement is. Also, an opponent’s hands and arms are rarely just at their sides; they’re often moving I front of them, holding something. They may also react to being shot, like holding up a hand or turning a shoulder to the gunfire. These are de facto barriers that your rounds have to contend with on their way to target.
Thanks my friend. I am about 80% of the way there. I agree about the rifle, that might not have been 'gut it out’able. As surreal as it was getting hit, when I got rolled into the ER, they transferred me to a bed and immediately rolled me into an MRI machine. I remember thinking DAMN! as the doc started running down the damage he could see. I started having trouble focusing and got tunnel vision (apparently my BP was dropping as I was bleeding out) and I remember one of the surgical team getting right over my face and talking and I said “I can’t hear you.” Next thing I knew, I was waking up in post op with a tube in my side, one down my throat, one in my nose, and IV’s in both arms.
It was most definitely an experience.
These incidents fit the profile of people in our area who were shot while under the influence of Methamphetamine. A good CNS hit is usually required to put one of these people down.
Toxicology on all three subjects were clear of any known drugs. Another good one is Officer Peter Soulis’ shooting where he dumped an entire magazine of .40S&W 180gr Ranger Talons from his Glock 22 into the COM of his perp. The perp turned around, ran back to his vehicle, and engaged the transmission to drive away. His toxicology only showed small traces of alcohol in his system. Real world stories generally cannot show any performance difference between the standard service calibers. Either you hit something important, or you keep shooting until you do.
When it comes to stopping a determined 2 legged predator, all handguns suck. Calibers like .380, .32, 25, and 22 just suck a LOT more. Have I carried a. 32? Yep - but that was only when the situation forced me to go that route and before I had my snubby.
Doc and others in his arena will often recommend FMJ ammo for carry in a .380. That should tell us something. If I had to carry one, I’d probably consider Defoor’s methodology and candy-cane the mags (JHP, FMJ, JHP, FMJ, etc). It’s certainly better than nothing, but I’d take my 5 shot 38/357 with 135gr Gold Dots anyday over anything in the pocket calibers.
I am curious though… Anyone have/seen data from real world shootings with the .380 Barnes X bullets? A few companies offer them and that bullet seems to perform exceptionally well in the larger calibers. Being solid copper I wonder if it shows improvement in .380.
A handgun is not a good weapon for stopping a determined threat. A lot of shooting incidents bear this out. A rifle or shotgun are preferred, but not always readily available to LEO.
A person can’t help but wonder if the people who were shot in the incidents you mentioned were on some drug that was not easily detectable in a standard toxicology screen.
When cars had hoods ornament, many LEO referred to them as front sights. A much larger projectile with tires and brakes = better stopping power.
Agreed.
The OP is better off with a quality light weight single stack 9. Having said that, I do have a Ruger LCP for a jogging/run to the store/backup gun with every other round being a GDHP and ball ammo.
A handgun has marginal stopping power when compared to other options. A rifle or shotgun is preferred by LEO and anyone else who is forced into a situation where they have to defend themselves, but they are not always available.
I still carry a .380 auto loaded with Speer Gold Dot ammunition (and a sharp knife) when attire does not permit the carrying of a larger pistol. I train for high COM and head shots.
Nothing in life is certain though, so you should have an alternate plan.
The Barnes bullet tends to offer better penetration than its lead counterparts. The funny thing about the solid copper bullets is that you cannot do an apples-to-apples sectional density comparison to lead core bullets. It gets much more complicated as you add the function of specific gravity of copper to the equation. Unfortunately, the testing data I have seen keeps the 80gr Barnes bullet in the same performance levels as all the other loads. There is some gel test data on brass fetcher.
edit: I heard wrong, sorry.
.380 was enough for Trayvon.
What?
Mr Martin was shot once in the chest with a KelTec 9mm…not a .380.
Not to shabby…
The OP has a Shield 9mm I wear OWB. I normally wear cargo style shorts from 50 degrees up 7 days a week. I have a long torso and no butt. I wear instructor belts as they are more adjustable. My pants still slide South due to my upside down light bulb figure. Always had trouble keeping my Sam Browne and all the kit attached from heading down, especially when running.
The Shield is one of the best pistol purchases I have made. The Sig 239 can stay at home and keep the 226 company.
My Bersa Thunder 380 is a very accurate 380. Scored TOP with it every qual I shot it at to carry whenever.
This post and video is/was just something to get people to thinking, the 380 has a place and you and it should know its limitations. I was surprised it penetrated the windshield glass. I have seen lots of bullets hit and skid up into the roof trim.
I don’t have experience with them but I have read that the Buffalo Bore .380 100gr➕p ammo is very good. It is a hard cast lead flat nose bullet that is supposed to penetrate as well as a FMJ but also cut a better wound channel due to the flat nose. I can’t imagine that load would be much fun to shoot out of my LCP though.
That being said it is still a .380
Go listen to some interviews with Claude Werner… he talks a lot about small guns and has done many studies on shootings. There was a good one on ballistic radio that was pretty interesting.
Whenever someone asks a question like: is this enough gun, or is a caliber adequate… It really depends on who you are and what you do from my view.
I work in an environment where I would lose my job if I had a handgun spotted on my person… I would not be breaking the law, but I have worked hard to get a good career and make a good salary. I also have to move equipment and work in plain view of others frequently, and have had my shirt ride up multiple times lifting things that I can’t put down. I plan to work for the company I am with for 30 or 40 years, and having a gun spotted on my person would be a very bad career move.
There are also different consequences for being “made” as carrying a concealed firearm for people with different careers. (Think off duty law enforcement vs average Joe)
For this reason, I may theoretically choose pocket carry at work with a CM9/S&W 442… When I’m off work, I’ll carry a bigger gun… but I have to make sacrifices while I’m in the workplace.
You can ask 10 different people and get 10 different answers… and ultimately, you have to weigh the options and make a decision.
If a .380 is all you have, it’ll get you out of trouble. You have to do your part though. Personally, there are so many good sub compact 9mm’s out there, I’d just go with one of those instead.
Shooting through an intermediate barrier, such as a car door, with a .380 Auto cartridge is not a realstic test. The .380 Auto is not a U.S. LEO service pistol cartridge, because the round, as loaded in the U.S., was not designed to perform this way.
For engaging a threat without firing through an intermediate barrier, the .380 Auto may be adequate. I destroyed several injured animals with the .380 Auto over the years and the recovered projectiles from my current defensive ammunition all expanded. Penetration in deer was between 8" and 12". On one occassion I shot a really large raccoon running away from me and measured 12" of penetration with great bullet expansion.
For another perspective on penetration in gelatin, read the data on this link: http://firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/380acp.htm .
I believe barrel length weighs heavily on terminal ballistic performance when shooting defensive calibers out of small revolvers and autos. In a confrontation in the open without cover, I believe the .380 Auto is adequate with the right handgun/ammunition combination. Of course as with any other caliber shot placement is the most important factor.