No this isn’t a “which is better” thread. However while teaching a frond to shoot I got to talking to the guy at the next table over. He had a stock AR made by DTI. Obviously not my choice but I didn’t have an AR with mebi asked if I could run his for a minute.
To my astonishment It shot great. I found it easier to acquire end hit targets out to about 100 yards more easily than I normally do with my BCM using an Aimpoint.
I am now really bothered by this. I think I may start my next build as a irons only and see how it does. Has anyone else ever found they are better with irons over optics? Or am I just losing it?
People too often use “technology” (the RDS) as a crutch rather than thinking outside the old box and learning how to effectively deploy irons.
For sure the RDS has value in specific instances. But people too often just ape the notion that the RDS is faster without really knowing what they’re regurgitating. You still have to pick up the dot and put it on the target. And if you’re snapping your iron sighted AR to your cheek consistently there’s none of this sight alignment horse shit that you hear from the instructors who get FREE aimpoints.
Iron sights work well but red dots have advantages in certain circumstances, such as poor lighting and shooter/target movement.
At a recent shooting school, our instructor said “your red dots just died” and a collective groan arose - but not from me. I had been practicing with irons about 50% of the time, working up to that class.
I smoked everyone in position shooting with irons against some very experienced shooters. So the “crutch” argument is true I think to a certain degree…
My thoughts are pretty open minded regarding this at the moment as I just got my first red dot, an Eotech XPS2, and I have about five hundred rounds with the site. I favor iron/open sites on my rifles, as I have never felt completely happy with optics until I purchased this red dot. I think a large portion of the shooting population utilizes optics to compensate for poor marksmanship, and they ultimately improve very little in regards to their actual shooting.
My hunting rifle in the woods out here is a 30.30 with irons that I am capable of hitting 6inch dots at 140 yards. I ran my MP15 for the last year with irons and make very similar if not more accurate hits with this gun.
In regards to the comparison, well I am not sure. I REALLY like the Eotech right now. I’m getting hits on targets that I am more then happy about, and I could see how it may
“be faster” in regards to target acquisition. The thing I really like is that my left eye is actually naturally opening up while I fire, and this feels really comfortable for some reason, and completely counter intuitive to how I shoot EVERYTHING else.
But to quote my friend at the range the other day: “I feel like this optic is really great at getting rounds on target, within the target, but my groups don’t feel as tight.” I seconded the thought. My groups feel a little looser, but they are still well within what is acceptable for me.
Being competent in irons though should be everyones absolute 1st priority in owning any firearm.
Poor lighting is the main reason I have a red dot.
That said, I am considering simplifying and going to tritium sights.
To me, that’s where co-witness comes in. I can drop my gaze into the ring and have my irons with the dot on top, making it more accurate. The ring also sharpens the dot for those of us with astigmatisms.
Poor lighting is what natural point shooting is for. Red dots are a luxury, and should be treated as such. Train with them as much as you can, but don’t forget how to “unplug the toilet” so the speak. Learn irons first, far beyond putting rounds in the X on a rest. If you can’t do what you can do with the Red dot with the irons, make it a priority to be able to do so. (pending lighting of course).
I shoot just as well with my irons as I do with the Red dot, simply because I couldn’t afford a red dot for years. So, I shot irons. I did drills, I learned holdovers, I ran irons as hard as I knew how at the time.
Then, I got a red dot. I took the same approach to it as I did the irons. At the recent Magpul Class in Pueblo, I ran the last drill clean, and if I remember correctly, in 4.2 seconds(correct me if I’m delusional). (The Three targets, 1,2,3,4,5 drill). I’ve practiced that drill before, for sure, and I understood my limits. What I’m getting at is… my personal best on that drill… WAS WITH IRON SIGHTS! Red dots are awesome. I love them, but don’t discount the still building that comes with shooting irons. It’ll pay off.
Iv found it easier to shoot with iron sights lately. I started with a red dot, then scope and never started with irons. So after getting it down. Its how its said, point and shoot as quick as you can. Most of the time its a for sure hit.
And i keep trying to think of what im seeing in my head as i do these shooting motions. With irons, in this order, you see your target, the front sight, then the back sight. Which makes your target seem smaller. Which probably in your mind, means less wobby or shake because your target isnt as big as your screen as you read this now. Like it would be with a X power’d scope or in the red dot’s case. The diameter of the tube. Someone correct me if im wrong or if this makes no sense at all.
It doesn’t surprise me much, when I go to irons I focus on more on fundamentals.
In low light, you’re not going to make faster hits than with a red dot, but it’s not as though irons didn’t work great before reflex sights were around.
Glass really starts to make more sense for the more experienced presbyopic shooters, but it does help.
The biggest advantage I find on an optic such as eotechs or aimpoints is that you can keep both eyes open. In LE this is a huge advantage. I however find my self making more accurate shots using irons.
I should have clarified. I was not shooting off of a bench, however I was not doing anything really dynamic either. My shooting consisted of simply bringing the gun up from rest or low ready, finding the target and getting off a couple round, bringing the gun back down then repeating for the next target. I did this for 3 magazines. It wasn’t my gun so I wasn’t going to run it hard.
My main surprises comes from the fact that I seem to be more accurate and can acquire targets (In this scenario) as fast as I can with my Aimpoint. It has gotten my attention enough where I plan on testing it further to see either where I am deficient with a RDS or why I seem to do better with the Irons.
I lack the training of many of you. So I am constantly trying to find what works best for me and what I need to improve on. This is telling me that something is up. I am just not sure what yet.
By “accuracy” are you referring to the distance your shot is from the intended location or the overall grouping of a series of shots?
Not knowing your training background it’s hard to diagnose over the internet what you might be doing right or wrong. I can tell you that I see shooters every month that cling to the iron sights to their detriment in a competitive environment. Even in a training environment at our practice nights iron sight shooters are typically the last to finish any given drill on the line.
What the RDS brings to the table is speed; speed of target acquisition but also speed of initial introduction. To paraphrase from someone else, the RDS allows us to simply “see the motherfucker, shoot the motherfucker”. This really comes into play when engaging multiple, dynamic, reactionary, self-aware targets. While TK is right that hunting is not fighting, hunting has many similarities when looking at these target attributes.
What you may be doing wrong is over-thinking things. While I am a fan of fixed iron sights that are visible in the optic, I think that starting out with a totally uncluttered view is beneficial for many. I had a shooter at drills last month that had his MBUS deployed and did a LOT better when I folded them down. Removing that clutter from the field of view helped him to simply focus on the target and superimpose the dot over it.
you must first learn to shoot well with irons. red dots are very well suited for close quarters work and low light, but i have also found that irons work much better at ranges of 100 yards and beyond.
Some hunting, I’d humbly submit. Hunting dangerous game I think would be bit closer than hunting prey animals. There is a difference between a “target” and a “threat”.
Point being - while a deer may be moving (in low light), aware, and have good camouflage, you are not shooting to stop a deer. You are hopefully placing one precision round that will kill the animal. The animal is pretty much always going to be at a range where some type of magnified optic is preferable than a red dot.
Rifles are sometimes set up differently when dangerous (potentially charging) game is involved… in fact they tend to be set up a bit more like “tactical” rifles.
Anyway, this is probably getting weirdly off-topic. Your mission dictates your gear.
I think I am leaning towards needing to learn irons first, not sure if its something instilled in me from the military or what. I guess any one can pick up a red dot and paint a target with it and hit just fine. It takes a bit more learning and muscle memmory to aquire proper sight picture and sight alignment when using irons. In simpler terms, it takes more skill to use irons than it does to use a red dot. I am not bashing them at all, I am a big fan, its a “big tactical” advantage. But when the equipment fails, you need to be confident enough that you will do just fine with irons. So, I think every good rifleman should always build their roots on irons then grow into the optics world.
