http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,527863,00.html
Get rid of:
One of the world’s major state sponsors of terrorism?
One of the world’s major nuclear arms proliferators?
One of the major allies of North Korea?
One of the major sponsors of anti-Israeli violence and destablizers of Lebanon?
And no one is helping or even talking about this proto-revolution?
M_P
I can’t imagine any US involvement in that foolishness being seen as any kind of good on the world stage right now. Better to let them fight it out and deal with the “winner”.
I have to say I disagree - this is an opportunity the removal one of the most corrupt, dangerous and evil regimes in the region.
And by that I don’t mean the Obama Administration.
M_P
I think we’re rather over-extended with regime-toppling at the moment IMHO.
Although I support the fight for freedom in Iran, I do not see how we can help them at the moment. Other than the IT and Satellite help we are discreetly doing now.
I say let them have their spontaneous revolution.
Regime change is off the table (Thanks Obama) for his gesture in recognizing their fucked up government, in the hope that they’ll behave more civilly and won’t make Nukes in the future.:rolleyes: Guess it didn’t work huh? The real question is, why isn’t the White House or State Department making ANY public statements condemning the Iran Regime, for it’s extremely heavy handed tactics with the protesters? The people that are conducting these massive and daily protest (Which are of historic proportions) are looking for support from the one country that represents freedom on this planet and aren’t getting squat. The Iranian government is already accusing the US of interfering anyway, why not show a little back bone and support for their cause. A definite lack of ballsac to me.
LOL! You sure about that?
I’m curious what kind of “help” we should be sending? Troops? Tanks? UN “Peacekeepers”? A “get well soon” card?
Short of getting ourselves into another Iraq, I don’t see any options, and that (to me) is a non-option.
At a minimum, and a bare minimum, we could say we support free, open and fair elections. We could say we don’t support stealing elections. We could say we support freedom and the free exercise of the right to protest. We could say we don’t support shooting citizens down in the street.
M_P
Add this to the discussion.:mad:
Actually any kind of American “Help” would only undermine their credibility, derail their support, and give the Islamic government, militias, and security services just the excuse they would love to have.
We should remember that the actual leadership of the unrest are part of the Islamic establishment themselves. That is a huge fact that cannot be ignored. Without their power & creditability this would have been over a week ago.
I follow these matters pretty closely and no, without a doubt active military involvement is out of the question. However, I agree with those who argue the USA in the body of POTUS should be standing unequivably with the cause of human freedom - as past Presidents have done. Reagan was able to deal effectively with the Soviets because he spoke forcefully with moral clarity in support of freedom movements in Eastern Europe - Poland and the Solidarity movement for example.
France and Germany are way out in front of Pres Obama so far. This is a highly peculiar precendent for the “leader of the free world”. He’s acting tentative as he previously did when the Russians were beating up on Georgia. It’s not how this superpower should be behaving. If the Iranians want to shake off the mullahs, it can be done. They’ve done similiar before. Global “moral support” which should be focused on the rights of Man and Woman can have in impact on the new revolutionary movement in Iran to not quit the fight.
Many serious Iran “scholars” are in agreement that the military and maybe even the Revolutionary Guard may follow historical precedent in Iran and refuse to “open fire” on a mass movement of their people.
The current regime is abolutely diabolical. Horrendous on so many levels. They’ve not been threatened like this in their decades of control. We should not bungle this however I don’t have much confidence in our leadership team. If you caught the Secretary of State’s first major words on this before she fell and broke her elbow and dropped off the grid . . . it was stunning in it’s lack of historical perspective.
I give a huge tip of the hat to folks that will hang it out in the streets against a regime that can and has liquidated opposition by the thousands with few if any weapons and no legal system to assure them of any protection. It’s vastly impressive to me.
That’s a good point Dinger. Do these guys even want our help? Are they really any better than what’s there now? and who really gives a damn who their “president” is when it’s clear that the ayatola…whatever the hell, is the real leader and isn’t going anywhere regardless of who “wins”.
Sounds to me like a cop responding to a domestic call. he’s more likely to get stabbed by the woman for arresting the man as he is getting any kind of appreciation from her.
Serious professionals in this matter are not opining that this is an insignificant situation.
These comments from Michael Ledeen are a few days old. This is a big big deal.
http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2009/06/17/so-now-whats-going-on-in-iran/2/
Excerpt:
think that many pundits insist on thinking about the Iran-that-was-five-days-ago, instead of the bubbling cauldron that it is today. The same mistake is repeated when people say that Mousavi, after all, is “one of them,” a member of the founding generation of the Islamic Republic, and so you can’t expect real change from him. The president made that mistake when he said that he didn’t expect any real difference in Iran’s behavior, no matter how this drama plays out.
I think that is wrong; at this point, Mousavi either brings down the Islamic Republic or he hangs. If he wins, and the Islamic Republic comes down, we may well see the whole world change, from an end of the theocratic fascist system, to a cutoff of money, arms, technology, training camps and intelligence to the world’s leading terrorist organizations, and yes, even to a termination of the nuclear weapons program.
I think that, whatever or whoever Mir Hossein Mousavi was five days ago, he is now the leader of a mass movement that demands the creation of a free Iran that will rejoin the Western world. And yes, the wheel could turn again, this revolution could one day be betrayed, all kinds of surprises no doubt await the Iranian people. Yes, but. But today, there is a dramatic chance of a very good thing happening in Iran, and thus in the Middle East, and therefore in the whole world.
I have no doubt that Obama is being told by his intelligence czars and wizards that the regime is going to win, that the disturbances are not all that serious, and that he’s going to have to deal with Ahmadi-Nezhad for the next four years, so he’d better be careful not to offend the poor dear. That’s what every intelligence service ALWAYS says in these situations. It’s what the Israeli Mossad is saying publicly, for heaven’s sake:
Mossad chief Meir Dagan estimated that the civil unrest in Iran will not continue much longer.
Speaking to the Knesset’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, Dagan downplayed the significance of the riots, saying they are taking place only in Tehran and one other province.
Mr. Dagan, let us say, is phenomenally badly informed. The “riots” are taking place in every major city of Iran. Leon Panetta hasn’t made any public statements (bless him for that), but one will get you five that the CIA didn’t think there was any chance of this sort of all-out confrontation as of “election-circus day” and while they have no doubt hedged a bit since then, they still likely bet on a regime win.
Which is why I have a limited sympathy for Obama’s efforts to say nothing much, even though I don’t like it, and I think it’s a mistake on his own grounds. As I said last time, it’s wrong to think that your chances of getting a deal from your enemy is enhanced if you appease him. Reagan got lots of deals from the Soviet Union, even though he denounced it most every day.
As Obama discovered just today, America will be accused of meddling on behalf of freedom, even if we do nothing. And the accusation will have been true, in the most fundamental sense, even though the State Department raced to deny it. We are the symbol of freedom in the modern world, and those fighting for freedom against tyrants will intuitively invoke our name and our Constitution in their struggle. They are right, for the very existence of America threatens the legitimacy of the tyrants.
We meddle because we exist. [end of excerpt]
Check out how Ledeen called this back in 2004.
http://nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200402181614.asp
February 18, 2004, 4:14 p.m.
Stalinist Mullahs
The Iranian regime is in open battle with its own people.
Iran is now racing, literally hell-bent toward two dramatic confrontations: one within the country, between forces of tyranny and forces of democracy and/or reform. The other rages outside the country, a desperate war against the United States, its Coalition allies, and the Iraqis who support us. Both derive from the fundamental weakness of the fundamentalist regime, which has lost the support of the overwhelming majority of the Iranian people, and is increasingly defining itself a pariah state because of its support for terror and its brazen pursuit of atomic weapons.
Unreported in the American press and apparently unnoted by the leaders of the Bush administration, the regime is in open battle with its own people. In late January the regime’s thugs murdered four workers, injured more than 40 others, and arrested nearly 100 more in Shahr-e Babak and the small village of Khatoonabad, prompting an official protest from the International Confederation of Free Trade Unions. (Would that the American trade-union movement had leaders worthy of the name, capable of expressing such outrage). Demonstrations five days ago in the western city of Marivan were so potent that the regime sent helicopter gunships to shoot down protestors, and there are reports that members of the regular armed forces joined the demonstrators. And in Hamadan, demonstrators clashed with security forces after the closure of the unfortunately named “Islamic Equity Ban.” The demonstrators accused the bank managers of stealing the bank’s money and smuggling it out of the country to their personal benefit, and that of the regime’s top figures. The charge is credible because, as Western governments know well, large quantities of cash — just as in the case of Saddam Hussein — have been moved out of Iran in recent months by friends and relatives of the leading officials.
Much more attention has been given to the “hard-liners vs. reformers” kabuki dance leading up to Friday’s parliamentary elections. The ritual dance itself-the hard-liners first removed thousands of reformers from the electoral lists, then, following protests, restored a few hundred — is not as important as most reporters and columnists would have us believe, since the makeup of the parliament has nothing to do with the real exercise of power in Iran. But the lessons from the dance are enormously important. Above all, the dance has shown both the political impotence and the moral fecklessness of President Khatami, because he first failed to get his people on the ballot, and then, once the Supreme Leader and the various theocratic institutions had slapped him down, he supinely obeyed and then had the cheek to call upon the people to turn out and vote, in support of “Iranian democracy.” Maybe he’d been listening too much to Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, the other great philosopher of “Iranian democracy.”
The other great lesson is that many Iranians, when pushed to the wall by the tyrants, do indeed have the courage to fight back. In an unprecedented step, more than 100 reformers issued a letter to Supreme Leader Khamenei, in which they used language more traditionally reserved for greater and lesser satans in Washington and Jerusalem. They surely know that punishment will be severe, but they did it anyway. One fine day such shows of courage will inspire the Iranian people to defend them en masse, fill the public spaces of the major cities with demonstrators, and demand an end to the regime. And one fine day such actions will compel the Bush administration to support the Iranian people. And on that day the regime will fall, and with it the keystone to the international terror network with which we are at war.
Meanwhile, the regime is placing terrorists in parliament. Loyal members of the security forces are now candidates in the upcoming elections from Teheran and other metropolitan center. For example, 30 candidates running under the banner of Abadegarane Irane Eslami (The Builders of an Islamic Iran) are members of the security forces and are being managed by the father-in-law of Khamenei’s daughter Mr. Hadad Adel. For example:
Parviz Sorouri, a top Basij organizer in western Teheran. He is the editor-in-chief of Revolutionary Guard (Pasdaran) publications in Lebanon and Syria. A terrorist activist.
Said AbuTaleb, a member of the security apparatus and intelligence of Pasdaran. He was active in Iraq, posing as a television worker. He was arrested in Iraq and later released.
Hosseyn Fadai, one of the organizers of the army’s branch known as the Badr forces. The Badr forces have undertaken terrorist activities in Iraq. A known terrorist, he is also a member of the group that oversees supplies for the armed forces.
Mehis Kouchakzad, responsible for organizing the safehouses for the terrorists in Karbala, a known terrorist.
Elias Naderan, the manager of legal matters regarding the Pasdaran in parliament.
Alireza Zaakni, responsible for the Basij at Teheran University and its presence in the student body, he oversees all Basij/student activities nationwide.
Emad Afrough, a member of the Governing Council of the Army and in charge of security and intelligence matters in the Guardian Council.
Seyyed Fezollah Moussavi, director of the Committee for the Defense of the Palestinian Nation and the head of the council overlooking the benefits of the Martyrs of the Intifada, a known terrorist group.
The chief of staff of the armed forces has cancelled all leaves for all military personnel starting Tuesday for one week. All soldiers have been commanded to cast their ballots in the elections on Friday, as have all members of the revolutionary guards and all air force personnel.
In other words, the regime is now removing the “reformist” mask from all Iranian institutions. Henceforth we will see Stalinist Shiites alone.
And we may see them with atomic bombs. Oddly, just as the foreign minister was announcing Iran’s intention to sell enriched uranium to interested parties — thereby spitting in the eye of the French, German, and English diplomats who sang love songs to themselves just a few short months ago, proclaiming they had negotiated an end to the Iranian nuclear program — two smugglers were arrested in Iraq, near Mosul, with what an Iraqi general described as a barrel of uranium. Here is what General Hikmat Mahmoud Mohammed had to say about the event: “This material is in the category of weapons of mass destruction, which is why the investigation is secret. The two suspects were transferred to American forces, who are in charge of the inquiry.”
Compulsive readers of these little essays may remember that, late last summer, I told CIA that I had been informed of a supply of enriched uranium in Iraq, some of which had been carried to Iran a few years ago. I had offered to put CIA in touch with the original couriers, who said they would take American inspectors to the site, but CIA could not be bothered to go look.
I am told that the uranium in the barrel near Mosul came from the same secret laboratory. Perhaps now the CIA will think better of my sources, and work harder to find these materials.
Faster, please.
After Iraqi’s starting voting in free election, so did the Kuwaiti’s with an increasing number of women earning positions in their parliment. Lebanon’s elections were revitalized and just the other day, registered an electoral defeat of sorts to Hezbollah. Afghanistan has free elections.
Iranians see this happening all around them and are asking, why not here? Why can we not have real elections with a real competition of ideas?
This is a very big deal.
Afghanistan was never the “center of gravity” of the jihadist movement. But Baghdad, the capital of the original caliphate which the jihadi’s seek to restore WAS.
Operation Iraqi Freedom is/was about vastly more than just removing Saddam. But that was impossible to communicate to our notably historical perspective challenged society.
Those of you here who played a role in OIF; you will see over the next decade that you changed the course of history far more than you could ever have dreamed. These amazing events are not isolated and independent of each other. This is to a large extent why the Iranian regime worked so hard to ruin Iraq’s experiment in democracy. We are watching the Kumeinist’s nightmares comes true.
If you go back and carefully study the stated objectives of re-making Iraq into a functioning democracy, you will see explicit references to changing the larger Middle East. It’s a LONG way from over and the outcome will not be clear for a long time to come.
The support the protesters needed in the past few day should have been strong verbal support in condemnation of that farce election and the treatment of the protesters by the religious police. That would have shown the young internet/media savvy protesters, that we support their cause. If the White House would have used a strong verbal response, along with other free world governments and sympathetic Arab nations, it would have been tremendous moral support to the protesters and their movement. It shows that they are not alone in their struggle. Most Arab nations will never support it due to the fact that they don’t want an uprising for more freedoms to spread to their regimes, thus creating a democratic domino effect. I wonder if the Arab News outlet Al Jazzier, is covering it. I doubt it. It’s a moral courage to speak up for what is right and just, that the political leaders of the free world lack, including our elected officials across the board.
Reminds me of a quote that reads:
“All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to stand by and do nothing”. Edmund Burke
Git rid of and then replace with what? Sometimes the enemy that you know is better then the one you don’t. We don’t have the military numbers to police Iraq and keep it under control, adding Iran to our overstretched military’s responsibilities wouldn’t be doing them any favors.
Sometimes that is true. That is definitely not true about this regime. Recommend awesome books “Future Jihad” and “The War Against the Terror Masters”. This regime is the worst of the worst. But direct US military involvement is not on the table anyway.
Helicopters sprayed acid on unruly crowds according to multiple reports.
The military is not reliable for the regime. The Revolutionary Guard is also being called into question. For several days now, I’ve heard reports that Iranians are reporting Arabic speaking gunmen/henchmen doing the dirty work. Some reports as specific as Hezbollah fighters being pulled in to kill Iranians their own police and army will not kill.
This would be an interesting time for Israel to start wacking the hell out of Hezbollah’s key bases in the Bakaa Valley and try to “freeze’em”.
But the world ain’t a game of Stratego.