IPSC/USPSA scoring, someone explain this to me

Training Competitive Shooting
1

Christ I thought IDPA scoring was complicated…

This is for one stage.

Place |Name_|No. | Class | Division | Pts | Pen | Time__| Hit Fact | Stg Pts__| Stg %
11__| S, Rob | 42 | U____| Limited_| 95_| 30__| 17.94 | 3.6232__| 46.6992__| 38.92%

First, I know enough to know that this is horrible. I am there to improve. Second, I really, REALLY don’t care about the game of it all. I am there to shoot my way, with my carry gear, and not to get my name at the top of a list. What I am concerned with is increasing my accuracy under the stress of a timer. What, from the above, should I be focusing on as my barometer when looking at improving my hits? My goal is all A-zone hits regardless of time it takes to get them (which means, I need to slow down, based on the above), but I don’t see an easy way of figuring that out.

In IDPA we would be looking for zero points down, but I am not sure how to find that here. Is it “Pen”? and if so how do I differentiate from penalties due to misses vs. penalties due to breaking some rule I don’t know about? I couldn’t care less if I “foot fault” or whatever, but I want to know that I got the hit I wanted.

2

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2008HandgunRulesindexed.pdf

Pen = penalties (for shooting no shoots, misses, not following stage procedure etc).

and for those don’t know what hit factor is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUBMJT9cGPI

3

So there’s no way for me to know how good/bad my hits were unless I walk the stage with the scorekeeper when I’m done? That “30” under “Pen” could all be foot faults for all I know?

Thanks for the video, but all that did was reconfirm that the scoring is totally unnecessarily complicated.

Sounds like I should just ignore all that and walk with the scorekeeper. :cool:

4

The score keeper has all the info you need. What I do is keep a small pad of paper in my range bag. After the stage is scored I go to the score keeper and ask to see my score. I note the number of A, B C and D hits. Also the number misses, no shoots and penalties. Then I get the stage time. Now you have the details to help analyze where you are having trouble. Of course if you have the ability to walk around and physically look at the targets that would be good too.

Don’t get too frustrated with it. It’s all good practice no matter how you do. As a beginner is USPSA you want to take it slow for a few matches and really focus on gun control and accuracy. I’m currently a high ‘C’ production shooter and I found that quick (and safe) movement from one shooting position to the other really helped my scores. If you have to go 25’ from position A to B and you run versus walk, that cuts off a lot of seconds.

5

Forgive me, it’s been many years since I tried USPSA so I don’t remember much…

The penalty of 30 would seem to indicate 3 shots that completely missed cardboard or 3 shots on no-shoots.

The hit factor is pretty simple: (95-30)/17.94 = 3.6232

I’ve forgotten what the stage points stands for, but my guess is that it is a percentage of available points. If you want to figure out how you shot, then you need to find out how many points were available to begin with. For example, if 100 points were available, but my score was a 96, then I know I didn’t shoot all A’s, but got close.

The stage %, if I recall correctly, is a number given in relation to how the top shooter performed.

Sorry I couldn’t be of more help.

As for your mindset, I think you may have the wrong approach. Not caring about scoring is a common theme among non-winners. Instead, I would concentrate on kicking ass with your carry equipment. I was trained to shoot all A’s only, and my gun back then was a USP45. I’ll admit it was extremely frustrating, but my motivation was to be competitive with the mofos running the high-speed guns. It forces you to improve and definitely boosts your confidence.

Good luck!

6

Thanks for the video link!

Buckaroo

7

The feeling is, without a doubt, mutual. :wink:

8

Stage Percentage and Points

Whoever wins the stage gets the full stage point value. Let’s say it is 115 pts. Let’s say his hit factor was 4.7822. So he gets 115 pts and is given a stage percentage of 100%

Let’s say you had a hit factor of 1.6382. 1.6382/4.7822 is 34.26% and is your stage percentage. 115 * .3426 is 39.9 pts for you.

9

Negative, I’m not a gamer. Just a former training junkie sharing perspective on participating in competition with defensive equipment.

10

Since you appear to have shot Limited Division I will assume you were shooting MAJOR power factor.

Each paper target has 4 scoring zones (A/B/C/D), steel is 5 points each.

Scoring is as follows: A-5 B-4 C-4 D-2
Misses/No shoots/Procedurals: -10 each shot

What are you shooting with? Firearm/Caliber/Ammo/Holster

11

Some clubs will distribute the scores via email or post them at the club.

Most have more than just overall performance for the match. Good clubs will show each stage for each shooter. You’ll see how you performed in stage. Each will show how many points you got per stage, your hits on the targets, your misses, your penalties etc.

My advice (it’s worth what you paid for it) is if you’re going to shoot a match, shoot the match. If you were a race car driver I’d say: If you’re going to race in Indy race it like an Indy car driver not like a USSS Presidential PSD driver. The USPSA game is just that, play the game to the best of your ability/skill set.

FWIW and not trying to brag/beat chest/slap dick on the table etc.
I’m a B class USPSA Production and Limited shooter, C class in Open (I used a iron sighted M&P shooting Minor power factor 9mm to make that C class in Open, not a real easy feat.), If I actually practiced I’d probably be Master in Lim and Prod. I go the the range 2-3 times per month typically shooting 150-200 rounds per session. I know people who go to the range 4-6 times per week shooting 200-400 rounds per session who are about 10-15% better shooters that I am. In IDPA which I shoot about once a year I’m a SSP Expert, In GSSF which I shoot 1-2 times per year I’m a Master class shooter. Unlike many I never ‘practice’ USPSA classifiers nor have I ever shot a IDPA ‘classifier’ outside of a actual IDPA classifier match (I can’t say the same for other people I know).
In almost all the training classes I’ve ever taken I was a better pistol shooter than the instructors…
What does this mean? Not a damn thing. The instructors are teaching me things I don’t have any experience with. Things like what to expect in real gunfighting. Does this mean that my competition training is useless for knowing how to run the gun at speed? I don’t think so.

12

I think you may be working against yourself. I’ve competed in a couple of USPSA matches, but haven’t in a while due to health issues. I’ve competed in IDPA as well. I don’t think you can compare the two competitions. I like the challenge of USPSA because my shooting is already pretty accurate, but I wanted to increase my speed, because in a real situation split seconds matter. I suggest approaching USPSA as a different sport. You wouldn’t shoot an IDPA match as if you were shooting USPSA, so you shouldn’t shoot USPSA as if it were IDPA. You can improve with both of them. I would compare it this way. You’re playing checkers as if it were chess.

Also, you should always walk the stage when you are finished. I’ve been a spectator and an assistant judge in a police match. I caught people covering up the holes in targets before they were scored. If you are close to the perforation between A and B, or between A and C, the shooter is supposed to get credit for the better shot. Once or twice, I’ve witnessed someone being a jerk and trying to deny the shooter the A, in spite of what the rules say.

If you aren’t going to try to compete with the other shooters, how will you know whether you are improving? Putting the effort in will pay off.

13

When you log into the USPSA site to check match scores, if you click on your USPSA number it should give you a break down by stage of the stage and the misses etc. If you dont have a USPSA number then you wont be able to see this.

Since I have been shooting USPSA, I can assure you, no game will make you more fast or more accurate. When I shoot with the training junkies down here, well its kind of sad.

Your draw stroke will improve, hits on paper, overall speed, its really the best game for improving shooting I think. My 3 gun has improved because of USPSA. I also think IDPA is important but I maintain USPSA is just a great way to stay sharp, really sharp. We are fortunate to have such a great shooting community down here in GA. Dave S and Team Glock shoot at out local matches, keeps everyone working hard to say the least.

14

Well said.

15

Rob, do you know the total points for the stage?

16

I shot the IPSC game for years and my scores never threatened the champion – mostly because they were shooting dot-sighted, double-stacked, comped pistols from skeleton holsters with little or no retention.

I shot an M1911A1 with major power factor cartridges. I shot against the stock gun class.

In 2004 I shot the USPSA Nationals with a 5-inch M1911A1 and 230 GI Ball. I got comments like, “Is that a holster made from a cow?” and “Are you REALLY shooting GI Ball?”

My ammo factored at 193. I won the chronograph station and actually shot some mini-poppers off their bases.

If you’re competing against yourself and training for war, so be it. Be happy if you beat your class.

If you want to start winning matches, classes, and categories don’t handicap yourself – if it’s a game, play the game by game rules with game guns and gear.

Some habits will transfer. Note you also may develop some really bad habits gamers will pooh (since they’re not really concerned with getting shot at). The best IPSC shooter with a race gun may still be the best shot with an issue M9 – but he may not be able to wear body armor and kit, pass a PT test, or carry a rucksack and casualty away from a destroyed vehicle.

Take it for what it’s worth. Regular competition is good for pushing your speed and competence against the clock. It is random competition against others on any given day, time, conditions, and standards that you might not normally practice in (especially if you live in the Pacific Northwest).

The Cooper triangle of power, accuracy, and speed is still there – it’s just all gussied up with toys.

Gamers are not really concerned with letting the air out of people, they’re playing their game. They don’t care why you’re there, they want to beat you.

17

IDPA or USPSA I always walk with the scorer after I shoot.
I want to see my hits, but I also want to see what targets got what hits.

I have more feedback on my shooting if I know that I pulled left on all the targets I shot from such and such angle, or I dropped low (even if still in that “A” zone) on targets I engaged while moving than if I only know the number of hits in what zone.

Im always cometing against myself, but, since stages change and I only run each one once (normally) I have to compare to other shooters to get a good grasp on the big picture.

and no, your never competeing against the race guns, they are in another division. You have to compare like to like, or at least like to similar.

I too shoot a full size 1911 with factory ammo, and Im always glad to see where I rank or how I shoot compared to guys with 9mm high caps :slight_smile:

as to bad habits… yeah. I cringe every time I see an IDPA player run right up to a corner and reach around past it with their gun. I have this sinster little gremlin in me that wants to stand on the other side of that wall and snatch their pistol right out of their hand and go BOO! lol
and USPSA… engage multiple targets while standing in a doorway much ?

but they are games, so I play them, while trying to be mindful of what my priorities are and what habits I dont want to take home with me.

There may be no better practice for gun handling and marksmanship.

18

Just for a point of reference. I am a IDPA SSP master class shooter(sig p229), and will probably start USPSA in the future as unfortunatly it is the only matches I can find that will allow me to use a fighting handgun(one with white light… though I will have to shoot open).

I started out kind of like you sound you are starting out. With the intent to keep game and tactics seperate. Well honestly if you are doing that in terms of ACTIONS than you are only hurting your own ability to grow.
I started out trying to go 0 down every stage, because I wasnt a “gamer.” In time I realized that I wasnt growing. I needed to push my speed within the boundaries of the relatively safe atmosphere of competive shooting to see how FAST I could be accurate. The intent to be accurate is fine but the thing that competition will help you do best is push how fast you can make that happen. You will never know how fast you can shoot accurately unless you get rid of the mental block that you are not allowed anything but perfect hits. The benifit of USPSA over IDPA is that you can actually do pretty much what you want in terms of “gamer” vs “tactics” with reloads and the like(where IDPA forces you to fall within their definitions of what is right).
The point of the scoring system in practical shooting (IDPA and USPSA) is not to pick what parts you see as relavent, but to help you see where you are in relation to where you were. It may be growth when your practice(outside of matches or simply the attending of matches themselves), or it may be regression when you lose perspective and try to shoot either too fast for you abilities or take more time than you need to be accurate.
I would also like to point out that while not dont the best you can game wise in ACTIONS will hurt your growth, going against the grain with EQUIPMENT will not. Shoot with whatever you want, because by your own admission you dont care about your end standing. As long as you stay using the same equipment than any growth you see will be attributed to your own refining of ability as opposed to the small gains you get from equipment.

Long story short look at all the stats. The stage% likely the most. Not because you care what your standing is, but because after you have been doing it a while that is the number that will help you understand if you are getting better or not. ?You will know what regulars are better than you and which ones are not. You can use their scores in relation to yours to see if you are performing to your ability. Go into every stage with a plan in the context of intent. Such as “I will shoot this stage as fast as I can make hits” If your performance on that stage suffers and you got all the hits than you need to push yourself to shoot faster, if your performance suffers and you had bad hits than you need to slow down.

Sorry for the long winded response, I hape it wasnt to scatterbrained to understand.

19

A lot of people say you pick up bad “tactics” habits gaming, and I can’t help but wonder if that isn’t just false.

The reaction you have to “fight!” is going to be a helluva lot different from going up to a starting box, thinking about a stage, what you need to see and do, and executing a plan. I might be completely wrong here so if I am I’d like to hear it.

I run my carry rig in competition and my goal is to kick ass at the game regardless of gear because it means I’m pushing myself to shoot faster, more accurately, and performing blazing fast manipulations.

20

Just to be clear, while I am new to USPSA, I am not new to competitive shooting. I’ve been shooting IDPA for quite a few years, running my own two-gun carbine matches for 5+ years, etc. I’ve seen all the personalities and types that get involved in competitive shooting, know all the reasons and excuses for one way of shooting vs. another, know all the drama that surrounds every group, etc. It’s all the same. The holsters are different, the guns are different, the rules (especially the scoring!) are different, but it’s all the same. A psychologist could make their career writing about all the personalities, and the fact that they are all the same, club to club, sport to sport.

I’m not looking into USPSA as a competitive thing, I’m looking at it for the trigger time. I got too involved in the IDPA club and now if I attend those matches I wind up getting roped in to setup, scoring, SOing, pasting, tear down, etc., etc., etc. and I do it all without bitching because I see it as helping my friends. But my enjoyment of the match suffered at the expense of enjoyment of time with my friends.

What I’m looking for with USPSA is a chance to be anonymous, show up for setup but leave before tear-down, not have to score, not have to RO, maybe paste here and there, and get a chance to work on my SHOOTING outside of going to the static range and standing there running drills. Believe me when I tell you I know what it would take to “win”, I know the mechanics of how to get there, I just really, really, don’t care. Maybe I will eventually, maybe not. I “win” my fair share of our two-gun matches, and you know who cares? Not one single person. I enjoy the shooting, I enjoy the immediate challenge, I enjoy the chance to work on my abilities, and I enjoy the Camaraderie. I get no greater or lesser enjoyment out of my name being at the top of the list. (other than the year I shot an AK and took some amount of gratification in beating a field of ARs)

Someone asked the question about how you know you’re improving if you don’t compare yourself to others. Funny you should mention that as we’re actually implementing quarterly “standards” matches for our carbine side so that shooters can run a specified sequence of drills or stages, their scores recorded, and 6 months or a year later they can come back and re-run the same stages and see for themselves if they improve. Kind of the way many people use the classifier in IDPA, but with less structure and no end goal of stratifying the shooters, just a way for them to get a handle on whether or not they are improving.

I think I’ll keep going to USPSA, enjoy my cigar, enjoy the people, enjoy the shooting, and just walk with the RO to look at my hits, and leave worrying about lists and who’s on top for other folks.