Interchangeability of .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO.

So I plan on getting into the reloading scene soon and I’ve started saving up brass.

My questions are:

  1. When reloading, can I just mix the .223 and 5.56 NATO brass? Or do I have to separate the two types and develop two different loads?

  2. If I can just mix, are the different internal dimensions of the two types of brass significant enough to affect performance?

I know these questions probably gets asked once a week but I’ve read and read and I’m still relatively unsure since the answers vary significantly from one to the other. Some swear it’s okay and some say no. Please only provide answers if you are absolutely sure and have first hand experience. Knowledge strictly from reading on the internet should be withheld…

EDIT: I think I should clarify, I know that the 5.56 NATO brass can handle hotter loads. I plan on a .223 safe load so that it could work in either .223 or 5.56 brass.

Applications for my ammunition will be from up close out to hitting a man sized target at 450 yards. Thanks in advance.

While I don’t know the “book answer” I do know that I have loaded and fired thousands of M193 and commercial brass and with the exception of having to ream the primer pocket on the military stuff they all get loaded the same way. Never had a brass related issue. I had to adjust my crimp style switching from non cannelured projectiles to cannelured ones but that was a set up error.

When you resize cases to SAAMI 223 spec (there is no 556 NATO die set I’m aware of)both out side dimensions will be same, the inside of 556 internal capacity will be reduced more than 223 case, giving more pressure. If not mistaken, if am I’m sure someone will be along to correct.

Since my range loads are not to max I mix mil/civ headstamps without problem. To me it is more important to segregate by number of times fired. IIRC it has been shown that NATO 5.56 cases have the same internal volume as .223 headstamped brass

The volume of 5.56mm and 7.62mm military brass is effected by the thickness of the brass. I believe this effects both case volume and neck tension. When loading military surplus brass using a load recipe for commercial brass, I back the charge weight off 10% and work my way back up while watching for signs of excessive pressure.

If the OP has an accurate scale he can check the differences in volume by filling an empty military 5.56mm case and a commercial .223 case with isopropyl alcohol, then weighing the contents.

Another method is to measure the difference in the volume of the cases by measuring the volume of alcohol that is required to fill the cases. A small hypodermic syringe can be used to fill the cases.

You may not see a big difference with 5.56mm and .223 cases. You would see a bigger difference when comparing 7.62mm and .308 cases.

Lake City military 5.56 cases are made to higher standards than commercial .223 cases. The base of the case is harder to withstand the larger diameter and longer headspace settings of military firearms.

Early commercial contract 5.56 cartridges were not hard enough and the military set milspec requirements. This was done as a part of the solution to the M16 jamming problem.

Most .223/5.56 cases weigh the same, BUT as you can see below Lake City brass is one of the lightest cases and has the most internal volume. Meaning the brass is a higher quality and harder to withstand the higher pressures and military chamber sizes.

Below weight variations in the same lot of cases, with Lapua with 1.2 grains and Winchester at 6.5 grains.

NOTE: The SAAMI interchangeability warning for the .223/5.56 did not come out until 1979 with the introduction of the M855 military cartridge. Meaning the M193 cartridge is loaded to the same chamber pressures as .223 commercial ammunition.

I reload for two AR15 rifles and a Savage .223 bolt action rifle, for practice ammunition I load “BOTH” military and commercial cases to below the maximum rated pressure of the .223. This is easy on the brass for 100 yards and less practice ammunition and less wear and tear on the rifles. (55 grain bullets with 24.7 grains of H335)

I’m lucky, our Police and SWAT teams were practicing at the range and I came home with three five gallon buckets of once fired Remington, Lake City and Federal brass.

Be careful with Federal brass, it is softer and has a thinner flash hole web area the other brands of cases and the primer pockets get loose after just a few firings.

Below a photo from Google images and the results of loose primer pockets. And a good reason to not load commercial type cases as “HOT” as M855 military ammunition.

To answer your question about brass interchangeability, check your case weight. I sort my cases by headstamp but my Remington cases and Lake City cases are very close in weight and internal volume and these are both loaded the same with 24.7 grains of H335 for practice.

Welll op, if you weren’t confused enough before reading the replies I’m sure you are now…:stuck_out_tongue: For all practical purposes you do not have to sort between the two cases. After you work up your favorite load you can try separating cases to improve accuracy but it is not necessary for general loading and I have never bothered to separate them with no ill effect that I’m aware of. Sound advice for all beginning to reload is to buy a couple of reloading manuals from your LGS and read them from cover to cover. Only then will you have a solid idea what you want to accomplish and how to go about meeting your goals. You will use your manuals throughout your reloading process and they are an excellent resource to answer damn near any questions you run into. Take your time and have fun!

ky2970

As a followup I stated above I reload for two AR15s and a .223 bolt action. The Savage Bolt action has a 26 inch bull barrel, the brass used in this rifle is all the same headstamp. The brass is also weight sorted and the internal volume checked and the brass uniformed.

You will see many people who do not sort their brass for their AR15 rifles and their “blasting ammo” and this is fine for under 100 yards. “BUT” one of my AR15s is a A2 HBAR and it also gets fed special sorted ammo for precision work.

So for the best accuracy cases from the same manufacture and lot will be beneficial at longer ranges. I’m fully prepared, I can shoot Zombies at long range and short range because I have loaded ammo for both.

If your brass is mixed you might not be selected for the designated marksman position and you might get selected to just give supressive covering fire. :sarcastic:

Mix brass Zombie humor…:haha:

Unless you are shooting reloads with maximum charge weights or are loading cartridges for 600 yard competition, I would not be too concerned about mixing brass.

Load your cartridges at 15-20% below maximum charge weight for banging ammunition and you don’t need to worry about it.

This might help save a little coin, Sierra reloading manual (no load data) http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/index.cfm Hodgdon’s reloading data center http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp , just email yourself loads. Be sure to work up to load then you’ll know what’s safe in your rifle/barrel and reliable cyles. If we knew what rifle setup you had it might help too, someone with 1st hand experience might be able to chime in.

Very funny post Biged…:smiley:

This is exactly the answer I was looking for! You guys are awesome with the super fast and informative replies. Thank you!

EDIT: One more question: I understand that military spec 5.56 has a crimped primer pocket. I recently bought some Federal 5.56 M193 Ball but it doesn’t appear crimped… I thought M193 was mil spec and should be crimped? I tried taking a picture but that wasn’t working out. It appears rounded and staked? Do I still need to ream it for the stakings?

A crimped primer has a slight ring around the primer pocket, just on the edge of the primer hole. This ‘crimps’ the primer in place. You can tell real fast by trying to seat a primer, it’ll go easy or give you a fit being tight. Or, if you have a deprimed case, bend the very end of a paper clip and wipe the side of the primer pocket from the bottom of the primer pocket to the top (bottom face of the case) and it will usually ‘catch’ on a crimp in the pocket mouth.

Most mil ammo does have crimped primers as does most once fired brass. Removing it is a another step, but you only do it once and you are good. :wink:

Seat a primer like said above and you will find out if it is crimped. I swage all my brass once so priming goes smooth. Check out the Dillon Precision Super Swage 600, it gets the job done.

Below is the milspec chamber pressures for M193 ammunition, which is 52,000 cup or 55,000 psi the exact same pressure rating for the .223 Remington. When the twist was changed from 1 in 12 for M193 ammunition to 1 in 7 for M855 ammunition with its longer throat the pressure would cause pressure spikes in the older shorter throat .223 rifles. Meaning the SAAMI interchangeability warning did not come out until 1979 with the new M855 ammunition with its 1 in 7 twist and longer throated M16/A4 rifles.

MIL-C-9963F
15 October 1976
SUPERSEDING
MIL-C-9963E
12 May 1970

MILITARY SPECIFICATION
CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M193

3.7 Chamber pressure.

3.7.1 Measurement by copper-crush cylinder.-The average chamber pressure of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall not exceed 52,000 pounds per square inch (PSI). The average chamber pressure plus three standard deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 58,000 PSI.

3.7.2 Measurement by piezoelectric transducer.-The average chamber
pressure of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall not
exceed 55,000 PSI. The average chamber pressure plus three standard
deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 61,000 PSI.

NOTE: All military pressures are given in psi “BUT” the 52,000 figure above is still cup or copper units pressure. This can be confusing when looking at TM 43-0001-27 because both type copper crusher and psi transducer pressures can and will be used for the same ammunition.

Remington developed 223 Remington to meet the US military requirements at the time.

The original, pre-Colt Armalite AR15 chamber had a long throat. This was the chamber Remington originally used.

Right before Colt bought the rights to the AR15, Stoner and Armalite shortened the chamber throat. This was the original chamber Colt used before the XM16E1 and the M16A1.

The first large quantity military purchase of 5.56 ammunition from Remington was in 1964. Reports of overpressure issues started the same year.

An investigation into the overpressure problems found that the chambers were different between Remington and Colt. Colt never had the original long throat chamber as part of the design.

Remington changed to the short throat chamber that Colt had been using. Remington then reported that they could not reliably meet the military velocity requirement while keep[ing within pressure limits using Dupont powders, which owned Remington at the time.

In a search for a solution, the powder was changed to Winchester Ball Powder and Dupont did work up some newer IMR powders.

Remington used the Colt short throat chamber as the standard 223 Remington chamber for SAAMI specs.

Later the whole M16 rifle program went through some upgrades. there were some buffer changes, a forward assist added, a chromed chamber and later a chromed barrel bore, flash hider changes and a long throat barrel chamber that was patented by Colt.

Originally there were no industry methods for chrome lining 22 caliber rifle bores. The requirements are different from larger bores. Colt developed and patented a method to chrome line 22 rifle bores.

With the newer, long throat Colt chamber more powder in the cartridge was required to meet US military velocity requirements.

The pressure limits remained the same but cartridge had more powder that would increase the pressure if fired in the older, short throat chamber that had become the commercial standard.

In the 1970’s FN developed the belt fed Minimi machine gun at the request of the US military.

FN developed a special cartridge with a two core bullet for use in the Minimi. This was the SS109 cartridge.

The chamber limit was slightly higher than that of the M193 cartridge. Not hugely, but enough to push the case to its limits for maximum performance.

NATO standardized the 5.56 cartridge based on the FN SS109 cartridge.

Being a belt fed machine cartridge, it wasn’t originally designed for accuracy.

During the 1991 Gulf War the US found producing enough M855 ammunition that met accuracy requirements difficult and most US 5.56 ball ammo issued during the war was M193.

When military firearm pressure standards changed for copper crusher to transducer measurements, the pressure limits for M193 and M855 were made equal. The velocity requirements remained the same so, M855 may be loaded closer the pressure, “limit” than M193 is.

The US Air Force still uses M193 as they still have many older M16 carbines designed the cartridge that get little use other than standing guard.

Even with a faster rifling twist rate, the M16 carbine is less reliable with M855 than M193 ammo. This is one reason that lead to many updates to the M4 carbine. Other reasons include new Colt patents, Clinton changes to,“Mil Spec” requirements and lobbying to get the US Army to switch from the M16A2 to the M4 and get Colt back the rifle contract from FN.

M193 was originally developed by Remington in a chamber that was never used by Colt.

When this was discovered, Remington switched the 223 Remington to the original, short throat Colt chamber.

The upgraded M16A1 resulted in a change to a new, Colt designed long throat chamber.

Remington didn’t change the commercial 223 Remington chamber to match the Colt designed chamber and the long throat chamber requires more powder to meet velocity requirements,

The additional powder for the long throat chamber can cause over pressure in the short throat 223 Remington chamber.

Bingo

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