Inputs on "Valhalla"?

Training Training and Tactics
21

I never said that “They” could arrest you, only that you could be arrested as exemplified by not leaving the premises. Guess I should have added that.

If everything you said is a “God Given Right”, then why do we need CCW’s for example. Isn’t carrying without one (everywhere except Vermont) illegal? Per your reply, it’s OK.

This isn’t “Disney World” my friend. It’s about being a Law Abiding citizen, and frankly I find it incredulous that a LEO would advocate breaking the law, especially when it could end up costing an individual his rights.

22

Okay, we seem to be clear on who can arrest you and what for. Let’s stop kicking that dead horse.

I stand by the fact that firearms ownership and useage (more broadly self-defense) is a God given right. You may get punished for exercising this right but it is still your right until you give it up or die. Free speech is a God given right but that doesn’t mean that governmental goon squads, be they WWII Nazis or North Koreans, can’t punish you for it. Some choose to exercise their rights, sometimes at great risks, while other choose to freely give them up.

You don’t “need” a CCW. You may get in trouble for not having one but I maintain that you have the right to carry a firearm regardless of government approvals. If it’s reasonable to comply with the laws, while not gving up your God given or Constitutional rights, I absolutely agree that you should do it. If you live in a state where there is no CCW, I say do what you think is the “right thing” but realize that you may pay a price if it ever comes down to it.

Being a “Law Abiding citizen” is great as long as the laws are good and reasonable. Look at my last post. A law abiding citizen in Alabama in 1860 would have turned in a run away slave to be hung. A law abiding citizen in Nazi Germany in 1941 would have turned in his Jewish neighbor to be gassed. The Nurnberg trials told us that just “following orders” or laws doesn’t give you a pass if you are doing something you know is wrong. Do you see a trend here?

I’m all for obeying the law as long as the law is A) moral and B) Constitutional. Be law abiding as long as it jives with doing the “right thing”. Blind obedience is dangerous to all of our liberty.

23

Where in my first 2 posts did I advocate “breaking the law” in ref to carrying a weapon or checking it in? You’d only be breaking the law if you were asked to leave the property and refused. You would then be trespassing. Not following a corporate policy does not equal “breaking the law”.

I absolutely advocate breaking the law if it means not sending your neighbor to the gas chamber or getting someone of the “wrong” skin color hung. It’s all about doing what’s right.

24

I’m not a lawyer, but here in New Mexico according to 10.8.2 NMAC (Public Safety and Law Enforcement – Weapons and Explosives – Carrying Concealed Handguns) it would appear that the “policy” would carry a bit of legal weight:

10.8.2.16 TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF LICENSE:
E. Carrying prohibited on private property. In addition to other limitations stated in the act, a licensee may not carry a concealed handgun on or about his person on private property that has signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons or when verbally told so by a person lawfully in possession of the property.

25

Well, this topic has gone askew, but since we’re here . . .

I find it troubling when people (as the poster quoted above) fully equate “legal” with “right” and “illegal” with “wrong.”

When I was young and very naive, I believed that too. The bottom line is, there are many, many, many bad laws. I don’t advocate breaking them, but that doesn’t change the fact that many of them are just wrong.

It’s absurd for any rational adult to cling to the fallacy that the law is always right and that breaking any law is always wrong. That’s just not the way it is.

Mr. Pennington understands this.

When doing what is right conflicts with the law, then an adult has to make a decision. Then, they must live with the potential consquences of their decision. That’s the responsibility part of being a free adult with God-given (or innate if you so choose) liberties.

The lawful = right mentality is what eventually leads to “we were just following orders.”

26

Getting back on subject… keeping in mind what Rob said above. Also if anyone has a problem checking their training weapons in at an armory or an establishment like that, then they are obviously unexposed to the standard operating procedures of most training facilities, military, LEO, etc… military and most people look to check their weapons so they don’t have to deal with them or leave them unsecured or leave a guard on them for a night out. Besides you are there to train and I don’t think someone is going to have to worry about using there CCW training on that property.

27

Thanks again for all the good feedback…

LDM, it is always good to be on a list like that… especially when it comes from an educated source.

I find the conversations on the resort policy interesting. We’ve “found” a few guns over the years at the resort and moved on quickly after the “misunderstandings” were resolved and the firearms checked at VTC. No big deal. It will become a big deal if we ever have someone end up dead in a hotel room that is owned by the same person who owns Valhalla. It’s happened to Gunsite, its happened more recently to Frontsight…students being irresponsible with guns when outside the control of an instructor but still “associated” with the school is a concern… the owner would rather it not happen here and the no guns in the room policy is part of the plan, and I agree with him. Think about the potential court debacle for him when they widow of the guy who was shot by his friend at EMR after dinner points out that the owner, through various agents/businesses, “got them excited about shooting/training, served the alcohol and allowed them access to their firearms!” As for legal action, I doubt it would ever come to it, but if someone really made a play to remain at the resort without checking their guns, the most likely result would be something like this:
Security Guy: “if you aren’t going to follow the rules, please leave”…
Rule Breaker: “blah, blah, blah”
Security Guy: “no, really, leave”…
Rule Breaker: “blah, blah, blah”
Security Guy: “as a duly assigned agent of the owner, I am instructing you to leave and notifying the sheriff’s office because if you remain it will be considered trespassing”…
Rule Breaker: “blah, blah, blah”
Security Guy: etc…
Rule Breaker: “blah, blah, blah”
Security Guy: etc.
Rule Breaker: “blah, blah, blah”
Then Rob Says: “and, since you were an a**-clown about it, no you cannot train at Valhalla anymore. If you aren’t responsible enough to abide by rules you knew existed at a place that you chose to be, or at least man-up when you get caught, I won’t train you.”
A** Clown Rule Breaker goes to internet and posts: “Rob Pincus and Valhalla Suck! They hate the 2nd Amendment and don’t respect individual rights! No worthy gunowner should support their business!”
:rolleyes:

One interesting anecdote that’s been blown out of proportion over the last year was started when a well known gunwriter drove up to the gate for a 3 day all-expenses paid event that Blackhawk and Valhalla were having at EMR/VTC. He was asked at the EMR gate if he had any guns, he asked “why?”. The policy was explained and said that he wouldn’t stay at such a place, put his truck in reverse and drove away. He never asked to speak to anyone from Valhalla, any of his writer buddies here at the resort or anyone associated with the event. This has come up a few times over the past year or so, most recently at some event in CA where another old-time writer was spouting off about how Valhalla supposedly “kicked Well-Known-Writer-Guy out”. The funny thing was that the big-mouth (who, ironically, wrote a great article about VTC years ago!) was actually at the event and knew the real story. People with agendas are funny sometimes. The great thing is that when silliness ensues in a forum like this, the record can be set straight. Similarly to what has happened here, there were, thankfully, people who knew better at the event in CA.
Icing on the cake: I was at a small event with the supposedly scorned writer in question a couple of months ago and we had some good conversation and he never brought the incident up! :rolleyes: i[/i]

Back to TRAINING stuff:

I just officially announced the Course “Combat Focus Carbine”… over the past few months, we’ve been doing a lot of carbine training for a diverse student body. Applying the fundamentals & drills of Combat Focus Shooting to Carbine happened naturally over the past couple of years with our military students, so we’ve now opened the course up to regular enrollment and given it a title. It does not replace our “Defensive Carbine” course, which focuses more on tactics. Basically, the two courses will compliment each other, with CFC covering fundamentals and weapons handling and DC being the following course putting those skills in context… rather like CF is often followed by Home Defense or Concealed Carry Tactics.
An article/announcement is in the latest Valhalla Newsletter.

-RJP

28

Mr. Pincus, thank you for taking the time to post and hopefully put an end to some of the internet rumors/half truths that exist surrounding this issue.

29

I appreciate the opportunity. Thank You.

30

I really don’t see why people are bent out of shape about having to check their weapons. It’s standard procedure on any military installation (everyone with military time knows this) as someone already posted and you can’t take them into many places like bars or federal buildings. There are some places where it isn’t legally allowed so either follow the rules or just find somewhere else to go. I personally thought it was explained pretty clearly the reasoning about it.

31

I don’t “get bent out of shape” over such things, but I don’t go places like that. It’s how I live my life. I have as much right to to not go to a place where guns are checked as they do to require it on their property. I don’t see a problem.

And the military thing isn’t a great analogy anyway. Look at all the times the military will completely disarm their own people because someone is afraid of the soldiers/marines having loaded guns. Remember the multiple times that tragedy has ensued because of it.

The negligent discharges in hotel rooms (especially those that have killed someone) are inexcusable. I don’t think checking guns is the answer to that problem, but then it’s not my resort.

The argument about where you might need or not need your gun is also weak. If any of us could predict such things, we wouldn’t be wherever it was at the time. I have no powers to predict the future, so I always carry like I always wear my seatbelt. If I played the odds games of where I might “need” it or not, I wouldn’t carry a gun ever because the odds favor me never needing it. I prefer to be prepared and to retain the means to exercise my responsibility for my own safety.

Again, I don’t contest any private property owner’s rights to make whatever rules they choose. I also do not think the opinions of people who disagree and choose to not patronize such places should be dismissed so readily.

Given that … I think Rob Pincus is cool. I think Valhalla (the training facility) is cool. If I ever go to Colorado, I’ll probably do more than one class there. I also won’t stay at the resort. :smiley:

32

I’m not really trying to get into a pissing match but if you are taking your firearms on ANY military installation or into a bank and such then you are wrong. You are breaking the law in those instances. You may not like my analogies but it is a true statement. Now if you say you don’t go to ANY place that doesn’t allow you to carry then I take it that you don’t go to church, you don’t bank, you wouldn’t take your kids to school, your don’t occassionally have a drink with friends after a long week of work, etc… You may not like my analogy and it is certainly your right to go as you please but I honestly don’t think that missing out on the simple pleasures in life is worth it because you can’t legally carry there. IMO there is a fine line between self protection and all out paranoia. I’m not saying that this statement applies to you, because I don’t know you from Adam, but even still my analogies were valid.

I guess what I’m saying is that no you can’t control or predict the future. All you can do is follow the law, hope for the best, and pray that God sees fit to put you in the best predicaments to protect yourself and your family.

33

As someone who lives on a military installation, I can say that your blanket statement is inaccurate.

In fact, this military installation allows civilians to hunt on it. Other military installations allow civilians to use their range facilities.

The ironic part is I’m more restricted with issue weapons than with my own.

34

Wrong on both accounts. I’ll give you a 1/2 point for not being able to CCW on the installation. Blanket statements are rarely accurate.

Edit: In 30 minutes I’ve leaving my on base house and going to the on base gun club for a little informal plinking with some friends.

35

A bank? That sounds like an old wive’s tale - I hear it all of the time from guys around here (sw PA) but you can open carry into a bank here if you desire.

At least that is our local law/lack thereof.

I don’t have a dog in this “fight” but I do prefer to be armed at all times, if possible. If I was attending a facility that demanded that I check my personal firearms in I probably would not train there. If they had a secure area if you desired to check your arms… that would be well-received by me.

36

MerQ, please consider updating your profile to show your state. If the laws in your state are truly as bad as you indicate, I’d like to know what state that is.

Here in Virginia, banks are okay, churches (if you have good & sufficient reason) are okay, and restaurants serving alcohol (if you’re not concealing) are okay.

Also, to follow up dport’s comment, I’ve seen many civilians with firearms on military and other government posts/bases, for purposes including hunting, skeet shooting, and turkey shoots.

37

MerQ, as noted, you are wrong on a number of accounts.

And no, I dont go places I cant carry, unless I am forced to, such as the rare occasion I am on a plane.

38

This is interesting because I work on a military installation as defense contractor. I know it has a skeet range so obviously you can bring a firearm to that location. But I also know they do not allow concealed carry on the base. If I attempted to bring a loaded firearm (sidearm, AR) on base I would be in deep stuff. I certainly am not allowed to carry concealed within my workplace, even though the civilian jurisdiction (El Paso county) issues concealed carry permits.

39

Concealed carry is most likely a no-no on any given installation. I say most likely, because it really does vary from installation to installation.

That wasn’t his point, however. He was talking about checking your gun. You definitely do not have to check your gun at every military installation.

40

I think this thread is so thoroughly off track that it’s beyond redemption.

If you guys want to keep debating this, how about starting a new thread or taking it to email or pm.