I have read that in areas where they actually have to fight guerrillas, the Indian Army and paramilitaries use imported AK’s. During the wild shootout in Mumbai in 2008 most of the cops were using Lee-Enfields even though money was already set aside for more modern weaponry. Turns out the money did a disappearing act.
While Kev does not need my support to make his points, I agree with him on several of his points.
#1 India can afford more than you think. That cancelled contract was for about 110 million dollars if I converted correctly. 60000 units screams trial run, let the ABN/SF units try em out and see if they are adaptable across all units. Migrate from SOF to INF to CS to CSS, then buy a million. Not dissimilar from the US situation.
#2 I agree again that AK/ Galil type rifles are not the future. using optics, PVS, and lasers on any AK series rifle simply sucks. From a procurement perspective I would want to invest in platform that can still be upgraded in the future. Having shot Indian 7.62 Galils I can tell you they know very well they need to go in a new direction. (Jack L. this is for you bro) Back 2010 I was conducting a JCET in India. Precision marksmanship was my part of the POI. They had 7.62 Galils as their SSR. As per JCET SOP you have to show your credibility. I had them put a water bottle cap at 100m I shot it a 12 o’clock one shot/ cold bore from an SR25. I had their attention to say the least. With their Galils were I might hit a copenhagen can at 100m, before the zero shifted because of the crap side mount. I recommended that they divest from that platform and move towards an AR based SSR. After some of the indian officers put 118LR through my SR25 they knew for sure the galil was junk
AK based systems, have issues, mounting optics, accuracy, etc. The 416/417 is not the end all be all, as much as I like them. The Scar 16 is faced with the glaring fact it is not a SCAR 17. (when I am done there will be no SCAR 16 BTW) The SCAR is at the beginning of its development cycle as well.
KEV is right the mk.16 was dropped and let the guys with first hand experience talk about the 416.
It was not-too-long-ago in American History that quite a good percentage of our premier units were running their M4s bone dry, or lubing with Militec-1 or graphite… in combat.
Carbon fouling and environmental debris will stop up your gun quicker if you’re not lubed. Fact.
This is mitigated by cleaning.
Unlubed weapons wear at a faster rate when stood up to a decent firing schedule. Fact.
This is mitigated by maintenance.
Is it still better to run wet? Absolutely.
I think as your knowledge base grows, you will find that “the AR is really accurate and unreliable, and the AK is really reliable and inaccurate” is a gross oversimplification. Further, “da new hawtness” needs to bring something to the table or it won’t get traction.
So they don’t put a SOPMOD kit on every M4… we don’t, and we are the most powerful Army on the planet.
What exactly do you envision is required to maintain an M4?
I don’t fault you for just repeating what you’ve heard, but turn your brain back on.
PMCS and Operator level maintenance is simple on the M4 type. Additionally, many “third world” soldiers have higher mechanical aptitude than you think.
I am reminded of a similar comment that was made when we were fielding the first set of M4s to the 10th IA Commando Battalion at COB Adder- the comment was made by a complete idiot with an IQ of about 25… I was hesitant to say anything but Joe was right on it in about three seconds- “Well you’re dumb as shit and somehow you can make an M4 work.” 
LOL!
The AR family of weapons is a modular design.
If it were welded or pressed together… or otherwise more permanently assembled, it would have met the same fate as other legacy designs.
Luckily, we can swap configurations, modernize, and update the platform with just a few basic tools and not a whole lot of training, experience, or technical know-how.
Thus, a rack of M16A2s MTOE’d for funeral details can become some pretty badass DMRs in an afternoon.
ARs have gotten dramatically cheaper as more sources come online, and excess inventory needs to get moved. This does have an effect on the professional market as well as the consumer market.
It’s the plain truth, homey.
SCAR-L went right into the dumpster after a short run and HK-416 only has traction with one customer who buys whatever HK tells them they need.
416 a one customer gun? All three tier 1 US counter-terror teams field the Hk Rifle and the USMC bought it to replace the m249. That is a rather impressive customer list by itself. If you look internationally that list gets mighty impressive.
To add to the above NASA’s ERTs use the 416 which I have also heard the same goes for DOE’s OST. Basically anyone with the budget who can afford them get them. That says a lot when you can choose ANYTHING. Let’s also not forget Larry Vickers was contracted by HK to help them develop the 416.
The latest issue of SF/G&A Combat Tactics has a world map, over each nation is the assault rifle they have adopted as of 2015. If the map is correct the only nation to adopt the 416 wide is Norway. That is not to say the countless nations SOF that have adopted it.
Isn’t FN’s price per M16A4 like 600 bucks. That’s not bad. If they get a similar price and spend half of that 110 million, that’s like 90k rifles.
Except it’s not. Besides the HK416’s current use with multiple sneaky squirrel types, LE organizations, and standing a decent chance of being the bundeswehr’s next rifle, the Mk 16 SCAR has seen use since it was first fielded. Deciding not to buy more due to budget cuts is not the same as junking what you do have. I saw one “in the wild” on my last deployment, and know of others that have as well. There’s also it’s use by various “cool guy” teams around the world.
A country like India should be able to manufacture their own rifles. They have the industrial know-how to get it done. They could do an M-16 clone that looks a little different to salve national pride. Every ten years they beat the heck out of the Pakistanis, even with allegedly lousy rifles.
Corn…
They can build their own rifles but one thing I was eluding to is the instutional knowledge that decades of a manufacturing that fire arm is lacking. I feel that instutional knowledge is the critical element in producing a large number of weapons in a cost effective manner. The engineers and smiths sitting around the design saying “that’s cute but it’ll cost X more because that will be hard to build” is what they do not have. They know that offset on one end is cost and the other is quality. They do not have the infrastructure to effectively show them the way.
They also have very leery major manufactures burnt by the INSAS project who are protecting their production capabilities/ techniques. They are stuck, if they buy foreign they don’t get the knowledge base to go with it, and if they build their own they get designs lacking in refinement IMO.
I can tell you that the Galil 762 is shitty SSR platform, shitty. It damaged brass when it ejected (on purpose IMO) so they couldn’t reload it. The side mount for the optic was pure trash. The optic used was less than impressive and you touch the mount it lost zero.
Norway is basically an oil emirate, so they can afford it. That falls into the “people who can afford anything they want buy the 416” logic.
Yeah but how much of that 110 million is going into someone’s pocket? The Indians could make a fine rifle if they didn’t have so much corruption. Factory owners cut corners on production and government officials get paid to look the other way.
Not to just directly negate everything you just said, but the 416 has seen very low adoption, and like a lot of other HK products spends most of it’s time in the rack of those cool guy organizations you referenced. Not sure about how it works for NASA, but who cares?
No one is clamoring for a piston driven AR like they were so many years ago, and most of those who were at that time weren’t the end users.
The SCAR-L, unlike the SCAR-H, was a total flop. If you saw one it might have been snagged on a lateral transfer from some theater redistribution warehouse, and if it goes down, good luck obtaining CLIX. I’m sure it works great for DFAC pimping though… it’s FDE.
I believe that this go around they will license a design from outside, but produce it in India.
Hopefully they can fix their QA/QC and materials issues.
I’m
It’s nice to have hope.
There isn’t a whole lot wrong with the basic design of the INSAS. It’s derivative, but the guns they stole from were decent. The execution, OTOH, is abysmal. I just don’t believe that the Indians have the industrial chops to mass produce that level of equipment.
H
I don’t know about the design itself, but I digg it.
I wasn’t so hot on the Modelo L’s but if kits came in I’d figure out a way to make one work (until it broke, because the materials were shit).
I like how they didn’t even have to make it hunter safety orange like bakelite, but they were like, “dammm dat bakelite AK stuff looking HOT!”
Let us make orange rifle! Vedigood!!!
Well then they probably need to steer clear of licensing anything from Sig Sauer USA.
With something like 80% parts commonality with the Mk 17, I don’t see parts being an issue, not for a while of hard use anyways. Don’t know about DFAC pimping, as I never saw one there, only saw it the one time we worked directly with an Air Force Para Rescue/Combat Controller team before they realized how idiotic my battalion was.