Stumbled upon this, will be interesting to see what they finally adopt over the long haul.
India’s soldiers still have to fight with clunky, outdated and unreliable rifles
If they junked their kits over here, I’m sure there would be some interest in building them up and getting them right.
I’m actually a bit surprised there wasn’t more interest in the CETME Modelo L.
Apex is running their CETME Model L kits on sale for the 4th currently . . .
http://www.apexgunparts.com/parts-kits/cetme-bundle.html
As for the INSAS, I don’t know man. Their not really on any one’s “Holy Grail” list but I am sure some collectors would love to get their hands on some OEM rifles. IMHO the INSAS has always looked like a “Frankenbuild” fresh from the factory. I see SKS, AK, FAL, etc. influence. The Indians should just adopt the SCAR L, CZ Bren 805, etc.
Interesting to see FN and HK were not considered/ didn’t have entries.
I get the HK part, no way I’d spend that much to outfit infantry troops with a system that won’t do much the colt wouldn’t.
However it would seem the FN FNAC could be a good choice.
I’d be interested in what they do, if anything.
How can a country that has launched satellites into space, has an aviation industry, makes their own tanks, and is building an aircraft carrier screw up what is essentially a kalashnikov copy?
Interesting to see another country have the same small arms replacement program fiasco that the US has had. If the current weapon works, stick with it. If not, replace it. Not sure what the huge problem is, other than small arms for the average soldier are rarely on anybody’s priority list. Well, besides the grunts themselves anyway.
I think that if I were India, and I were planning on being a strategic adversary in the Pacific to the US and China, I would want my troops to have a reliable weapon system. Not that I believe that China will invade India again (as occurred in 1962). However, Indian troops may find themselves fighting somewhere else against American and/or Chinese proxies (such as Kashmir).
Two thoughts:
A- FN and H&K might not be willing to sell at the prices India wants to pay.
B- The last time India had one of these competitions, they didn’t buy anyone’s entry. Instead, they took what they liked from everybody’s entries and slapped them together in one rifle. This is how the INSAS was born.
I’ve read some very negative things about the INSAS, and it sounds like their ability to manufacture quality rifles is the biggest issue, not so much the design.
I’m shocked they don’t buy a stack of Galils. It would solve their problems. They can’t afford SOPMOD type kits for their regulars, but 5.56 NATO Galil ACEs might be a good choice for the adverse climates of India (Himalayas in the north to the jungles in the south).
I can tell you from a JCET I did there a few years back that India should shit can a large amount of its small arms. The 7.62x51 Galil rifles had real problems holding zeros and they would damage brass as they ejected (so they had to buy new an not reload?). The only small arm I shot there that was worth a shit was their Tavors and MP5’s.
India wants to develop its own organic advanced small arms industry. The INSAS I am sure burnt many of the larger producers, that stunt will not be quickly forgotten. But considering I view India as the fulcrum of strategic policy in ASIA (if they align with us vs. china it will go a long way in culling Chinese expansion) I think them having advanced arms is critical, their lack of small arms capacity is a critical oversight. Lot of places in India where dismounted infantry is the preferred technique.
They know they have a problem, curious to see the their solution.
I’m surprised they haven’t adopted the Tavor military wide, but I guess they won’t as it is a matter of national pride. Kind of like how we snubbed our noses at the T48/FAL.
India’s Para Commandos (SF) seem to like them . . .
I saw some things on Facebook about India having a big problem with Islamic terrorists in the northern parts. Guys were posting pictures of the aftermath of gunfights at checkpoints. The guys online said they really like the Tavor.
Yeah, but I don’t really like the way they’re doing it. Lots of incomplete kits have been received.
Also, there must be a reason Century didn’t call up GM for barrels, SW for receivers, and turn out a ton of rifles.
It was the workers and the materials more than the design itself.
Carry handles were bendy wire that just snapped off.
Below is a pic of white color fill on the selector markings and SN:
Homeboy is a regular DaVinci.
LOL, whut?
Galil is a legacy rifle.
AR pattern is the obvious choice… for anyone with a choice.
I think this is just more typical Indian government silliness. Their government bureaucracy makes ours look like the model of speed, efficiency and transparency.
If they had half a brain, and no “not invented here” problem, they would issue the cheapest AKMs the could get to 90% of their troops, and something good like an M4, Tavor, etc. to the small proportion of their troops that need the quality (special forces and those stationed in Kashmir).
Despite being a sort of a western democracy, India has been more closely aligned with Russia (and the USSR) than the economic west, and I would think that Russia today would offer them a honey of a deal on whatever old AKMs or AK-74s are in storage and perhaps licensing rights to the AK-74 design (maybe not the AK-100 series). But I’m not sure that getting a quality weapon into soliders’ hands is the main focus or priority of their procurement process.
LOL, whut?
Galil is a legacy rifle.
AR pattern is the obvious choice… for anyone with a choice.
I disagree. India cannot afford SOPMOD kits and Aimpoints for M4 carbines, etc to equip an army of regular enlisted soldiers. They will be using iron sights most of the time, and I would venture to guess that they will not have access to Fireclean, CLP or TW-25 to keep a M4 running. Likewise, the M4 is more maintenance intensive than any AK pattern rifle by and large. India possesses the extremes of hot and cold climates, and I doubt they have a support system in place to maintain rifles like our Army can (and we bitch enough about our own system of course).
A Galil ACE in 5.56 or 7.62 Soviet makes good sense for regulars, with good iron sights and proven steel mags. An AK-74M makes even more sense from a cost perspective for regular soldiers. The rails on the Galil ACE makes mounting things an option when feasible. A regular can run over their rifle with a car and not worry about their stock or buffer tube on an AR.
In an ideal world, an AR is better performance wise (HK416 and SCAR even more so), but India is too poor and many of their regular troops are not as gun saavy as our own. The Tavors, SCARs and ARs will find their way into their special forces, but an AK pattern rifle makes more sense for their regular army.
I second other people’s remarks about how inefficient and corrupt the Indian government is. Gandhi and Nehru practically turned the country into a semi-communist hell hole following their indepedence from Britain. I have many friends whose families left India for America in the 1970s-80s because they had no future in a system of high taxes, corruption, state run enterprises and inefficient services. They really did lose their best and brightest over the past several decades (PhDs in chemistry, engineering, Medical docs, etc). Pretty sad really. If they adopted a US state or Swiss canton system, they would be richer than the US in 20-30 years.
It seems unusual to me that the Indians can afford to help Russia pay for developing the PAK FA fighter, but can’t replace the old Lee-Enfields being carried by their cops.
But as previously mentioned, the country is a bureaucratic morass. There was a story recently on NPR recently about how certain, wealthier segments of India’s population are allowing other, poorer segments of the population (namely children) to be undernourished and malnourished because the food the Indian government buys to feed them - eggs - violates the strict vegan religious principles of the elite. The poor in India are very poor.
…and before the GWOT kicked off, neither could we.
Detachable carry handles. We could probably send them thousands that are sitting in every arms room in the Army.
LOL… are you familiar at all with the M4?
Weren’t you just saying that based on your knowledge of the Indian Army they had no money to mount anything on rails or buy CLP???
AK-74 and Galil are legacy rifles. It makes zero sense to spend money on them.
15 years ago when AR-types were much higher cost, it made sense to go Galil- especially if you could produce them cheap, locally, like Indumil.
Now the cost is almost identical and (obviously) performance is much higher with an AR-type.
LOL, whut?
Did you mean “video game world?”
What makes you think a 416 or SCAR-L doesn’t suck?
Didn’t both those designs get junked?
Well Russia is manufacturing modernized Kalashnikovs for export in everything from 5.45 to 5.56. These could work for a general issue rifle to conventional forces in India.
I am no expert in Indian military procurement, but my passing understanding is the existing Hindu nationalist government is not likely to bring in foreign small arms, as this is a classic Make India technology. No matter how messed up the indigenous, government owned manufacturers are, they keep getting new contracts.
And Indian soldiers are in a series of small wars, Kasmir in the NW and the Maoists in the East. Those soldiers have been thoroughly underserved and disrespected for decades.
I own 3 AR-15 variants (2 M4s, 1 SPR), a SCAR and an AK. Enlighten me as to how an AR-15 does not require generous use of CLP, TW-25, Mobil 1 or Vagisil to keep it running? AR-15s do not run well without lube or grease.
Weren’t you just saying that based on your knowledge of the Indian Army they had no money to mount anything on rails or buy CLP???
They don’t have the money to issue SOPMOD kits to tens of thousands of regular soldiers. They have the money to buy CLP of course, but I don’t see them being able to maintain M4s to the same degree the US can. The same goes for any third world country’s military.
AK-74 and Galil are legacy rifles. It makes zero sense to spend money on them.
The AR-15 is a legacy rifle. The AR-10 was originally designed by Eugene Stoner in the late 1950s at Armalite. I guess Knight’s and Daniel Defense should stop making rifles if I use your logic. The Remington Model 700 is a legacy rifle, but we still have a place for it in the US military don’t we?
15 years ago when AR-types were much higher cost, it made sense to go Galil- especially if you could produce them cheap, locally, like Indumil.
ARs are still high cost. They have not gotten any cheaper (and neither has any gun for that matter). The price we’ll pay for a Galil ACE is much different from what IMI will charge Mexico or other countries for a Galil, etc. The same goes for what Colt will charge for a M4, especially if the US govt subsidizes the purchase. When it comes to total costs (parts, support, service, etc), M4 > Galil > AK. You can’t deny that a M4 requires more service and cost compared to a Galil or any other AK variant. A M4 has far too many small parts and requires more frequent maintenance. These factors doesn’t necessarily mean the M4 is inferior, but it’s an important consideration for a country like India. I’m sure they would love to have HK 416s issued, but it’s not a possibility with their budget.
Did you mean “video game world?” What makes you think a 416 or SCAR-L doesn’t suck? Didn’t both those designs get junked?
So these comments prove you are being immature and completely ignorant. The 416 junked? SCAR-L junked? I think I’m done here.
I second Moose Knuckle’s comments about Russian 5.45 or 5.56 NATO AK variants for regulars that won’t be issued Aimpoints, EoTechs, night vision, lights, etc. Makes even more sense than the Galil ACE.
Gotta ask, were you drunk and/or high when you made this post? That’s a rather idiotic comment, especially as both weapons mentioned are in current use and have a reputation for being quality platforms.
As for the Galil and AK-74 being “legacy rifles”, somebody should tell that to all the current users around the world of both weapons.