Should I invest in the Magpul Dynamics “Art of The Tactical Carbine” DVD set? I’m looking at a Magpul class, and I think it will be a good primer pre-course in terms of addressing mindset, equipment, etc. along with introducing me to the concepts.
Thanks.
I’m personally not a fan of a person “training up” to attend a class; especially if the potential student has no training base. I also think that DVDs should be material that helps you to practice after you take a class.
Invest that money in good ammo, a good rifle, good instructors, etc. A video is not going to replace a good class from good instructors. It may also instill bad habits/training scars from misinterpreting something or material not covered.
Good training and an open mind can’t be beat.
I think the Magpul DVD set will help you get more out of the carbine course you take and would be money well-invested.
Why is that?
I am pretty sure that the MD instructors will still cover everything that the class is supposed to cove, and has the flexibility to change, whereas the DVDs will forever be locked in one point in the timeline of their class evolution.
I have never seen “Watch AOTTC DVD” as a class pre-requisite for anyone.
Anyway, Steve (an instructor with MD) comes around and posts now and then, I’m sure he would give you an answer if you asked.
Just go with an open mind and be receptive to constructive criticism and you will be fine…
In all seriousness, I can’t imagine that watching the DVD would do any damage.
If anything, it would give you an idea of what you will be learning in the course.
In the worst case scenario you misinterpret something said on the DVD and any instructor worth his salt will easily be able to help you correct the issue.
The more likely scenario is that you get a glimpse of what you will learn and get more out of the class.
I think that there’s an obvious advantage to understanding some of the concepts of weapon manipulation as opposed to going into a training course cold, with no knowledge of even the basics such as sighting in etc, nor even knowing all the terminology. The more info the better, right? And it will be useful after the class, and in the future until weapons manipulation paradigms change again. And for $40? A pittance and money well spent.
I watched the DVDs prior to attending my first Dynamic Carbine 1 course.
Two important caveats - I was already registered for the course; there was no chance I would watch the DVDs and think the DVDs could replace attendance at the training course. I was also not sitting in front of the TV trying to mimic the manipulations with my rifle. I was also an avid reader of all the AARs I could get my hands on.
How it helped:
This was my first rifle course of this nature -
It familiarized me with various terminology and catch phrases that might have been old hat for the more seasoned students… I know it sounds elementary -“ping pong paddle(?!),” “work space,” this “cupcake cupcake twinkie” thing; or various range commands used during the drills, either for safety or simply administrative jargon)
It helped me visualize how the various drills would look, and also to understand the purpose of different drills. It’s one thing for people to describe the drills in AARs, but if you haven’t been to a course of this nature, it’s tough to visualize what is being described. Maybe the actual benefit was very slight; but this being my first rifle training course, I was very apprehensive about being “that student” that was holding everyone else back because I didn’t understand.
I think as long as you understand how you intend to use the DVDs as strictly a preparatory tool, it can be useful, especially if you are like I was - apprehensive about what to expect; apprehensive about dropping that kind of money and not absorbing every drop of instruction that could be squeezed out of the course. It’s certainly not required, and for the record, these DVDs were in our possession long before I even knew what Magpul was-- “What are they? They make rifle magazine parts?” (I believe the Mister acquired them as part of a long-term conspiracy to entice me into the world of rifles and training courses.)
Everyone else has made excellent points about the fluidity of training concepts, the possibility of misunderstanding the material, and the absolute need for high-caliber instructors to provide the training. I wholeheartedly agree. The DVDs, although well-produced and nice quality, are only a pale shadow of what a student will experience and gain from the courses themselves.
Besides - nothing could possibly prepare you in advance for the experience of Steve Fisher, who I did not see in the DVDs and therefore for whom I stood no chance of preparing myself in advance. 
Seriously, though - his presence (oh and the other guy - Chris something? ;)) was invaluable. I found them to be extremely effective instructors and I learned so much from them.
All depends really. Its less likely to occur with the OP wanting to go to a Magpul class; but its an issue for other classes/instructors.
Refer to the 3rd sentence in my previous post.
Yes, I would never go into any non-Magpul firearms course and tell the instructor that I had watched the Magpul DVDs. Instant “that guy”.
I asked Steve to come in and share his opinon.
As a dude that’s been doing this for a while, I’d rater that a student take that $40 and get an hour of trigger control training from a local instructor.
I think that the MauPul DVDs are great ways to show people what this training thing is, and it isn’t going to hurt anything by watching it (really, who hasn’t seen at least some portion of the video footage by now?), but could that money be better spent?
In my opinon: yes.
A reasonable concept. Of course, that assumes that there is a local instructor available, that he actually does understand trigger control (the same way you do), that you can get just an hour of instruction, and that it will be $40.
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your position on this. I get the impression that you would rather your students come in to your courses pretty much cold relative to prior knowledge. I’ve been teaching a long time too. 30 years teaching Surgery to residents and post-graduate Fellows. For any given day in the OR, I require that all my students read the book, put time in on the simulator, and watch the relevant videos before they set foot in the OR. It goes much better IMHO if those students have an appropriate fund of knowledge and reasonable technical skills that I can refine rather than try to impart to them from scratch.
Maybe these two teaching venues are sufficiently different that it’s not a valid comparison, but I’ve been to firearms courses where I was a complete noob, and to courses where I was more experienced. I got far more out of the latter, found them more enjoyable, and learned more.
IMHO. For me.
Much like what gun/gear to bring to class, I’d ask the instructor I was going to train with if he had any suggested reading or viewing prior to the class. If I had some particular video, book, or other media that I was specifically thinking about I would mention it specifically to the instructor.
I have been in classes where I’ve had to listen to other students blather on about “that’s not the way instructor X does it”, or even worse “that’s not the way they do in in video Y”. No matter what your prior history I would suggest that either of these outbursts are to be avoided.
Especially for a first class, there is a danger of arriving with incorrect (for that instructor) preconceived notions. Un-fucking someone like that can be… challenging.
AH! I see the disconnect.
I personally view the idea of a student watching the DVD prior to a class about the equivalent of them watching a season of “Scrubs” prior to yours.
Entertaining, but not training.
I view them going to a local instructor as doing simulator work. Not the same thing, but close enough to build on.
I do see your points, and they are valid. If a local instructor is not an option then the video would be better than nothing.
I have taught a lot of people. Some with prior experience, some without, and even those that have attended prestigeous courses/events have had issues just like the brand new guys. The very best guys coming out of my courses had previous experience and very few bad habits, the worst coming out of my classes had previous experience and extensive bad habits, and those with limited or no previous experience generally fall in the middle to upper level performers (there are always those that perform poorly). Maybe it’s the difficulty in learning what true trigger control is for most shooters without having a decent instructor standing right over them, coaching them through.
It also comes to individual performance expectation.
50 yard hits on BCC sized targets or 8" circles at 25 yards on demand are the level my shooters are expected to achieve with a pistol.
I guess that we are both saying the same thing, just that we are each valuing reference sources differently.
I saw it and know that the time spent correcting someone’s incorrect view on something could be better spent refining other parts of the course being taught. Also, the student having a misunderstanding of something can lead to him having bad habits that need to be corrected.
Theres pluses and minuses to everything
I agree…an open mind is absolutely necessary in a student no matter what the venue or their level of experience. Unfucking a student who dogmatically clings to a concept based on books or videos, or prior instruction, is definitely counterproductive. And now I see your point…the preparation resources I require of my students are generally not what one would call entertaining, and there is some inaccurate teaching material in my arena too, but in the presence of an open mind I view (almost) any preparation source as useful. I can appreciate that you (and other instructors) might see it differently.
I recently took CC2 from Jeff Gonzales. I needed more of my 50 yard shots to get into that 8 inch circle. I didn’t pass, but I learned a lot. I plan to do better at the next course I take.
What I find is this, the DVD while good and info packed can help or hurt it’s 2 way street.
Things change ttps change as programs grow etc,
What I recommend is having an open mind to all and any program you go to.
Have a good hard zero on your gun and well Maintained carbine and gear
Have a good idea of the fundementals of getting rounds from point a to b
Have good knowledge of your working controls on your gear
And above all good safety habits.
The DVDs can give guidance they are good for later use and review
Some other inst like to make fun of or poke fun at some things we have done that’s life. I tell our students go train with others as well
Jeff g, pat rogers, Kyle lamb and Larry v as well Dave harrington
You will learn much from all and can then create your own folder for future use
That said In case my boss is watching. Yes buy the DVDs
Please feel free to call or email me
Remember. Not 1 program has all the answers
I’ve taken 2 classes from Steve, which were awesome IMO. I had watched the videos prior and was familiar with some of the mechanics which would be presented in class, but pretty much nothing can replace the hands on instruction…having someone with a trained eye tell you exactly what you’re doing right/wrong. Also, I discovered that Steve has eyes in the back of his head and sees EVERYTHING you do wrong and will call you on it…
One thing I’d recommend prior to class if you’re not doing it now is some sort of exercise regiment. Ladder drills and sprints are can be tough with gear added, even tougher if you haven’t done cardio in a while.
Mike