The world is a complicated place. It would be great if we could just stay home and not have to deal with people who would exterminate our society just because of our successes and standard of living. We could live in a world like one big Mother Goose Story, with happy endings for everyone. I would prefer a world like that.
Unfortunately, its survival of the fittest, the biggest and the baddest. That involves power projection and the use of lethal force on their turf so we don’t have to face it here. This sort of activity has not been a perfect way of doing things, and I’ve seen it first hand in some of these dung heap nations. Trial and error, people live, people die. You can argue the Vietnam War until your voice gives out - the same with Nicaragua, Panama, Desert Storm, Somalia… I don’t have all the answers and I can see faults in all of it. But in the big bad world we operate in, being proactive in killing your enemies over there, is better than facing them here. If my Country ever called me up for duty again, I’d go in a heartbeat.
I have also wondered how much the miracle on Omaha was aided by Navy destroyers which came in just close enough to the beach to not run aground to “snipe” at German positions up on the cliff with 5" guns.
From another article: “The second landing wave came in and likewise found itself in a meat grinder. The result was sickening. Around 9 am Captain Outerbridge felt he could stand no more. He wasn’t going to let his ship be an impotent spectator of the terrible drama that was being played out before his eyes. Without orders, Outerbridge headed closer ashore until the O’Brien was only 500 yards from the bloodstained beaches.
The skipper ordered a hard right until O’Brien paralleled the shoreline and its deadly cliffs. All 5-inch/38-caliber batteries commenced firing at the German pillboxes and machine-gun nests that were perched high above the beaches. After the first salvo, the ship received radio calls from Army units that were huddled at the bottom of the cliffs, unable to advance but unwilling to retreat.
Outerbridge asked if anyone had been hit by the ship’s salvo. No, came the reply—but please raise your fire, because we are here just below! O’Brien continued down the coast about a mile or so until reaching Pointe du Hoc. At one point, observers from the destroyer spotted German soldiers fleeing from the cliffs to a lone building just to the rear. It was quickly demolished—the soldiers still inside—by O’Brien’s well-aimed 5-inch shells.”
I’m not saying NOT to put folks on their ass; I’m just saying it gets frustrating at times.
But more to the point, a D Day defeat would not have defined the war for us like it did for Germany. We just would have kept at it. As was stated, by '44 Germany was dying.
Yeah they had all kinds of cool toys but were just spread out too thin and running out of friends fast.
Plus we just would have A-bombed them.
I remember once reading this autobiography of this German spy who was in the US by like 1944. German born and taught to speak good English; him and an Army Air Force defector went to NYC to try to get intel on power plants or some such.
He said that once he got to NYC proper; it didn’t even seem like there was a war going on whereas in Germany it was this big deal.
It was titled Agent 18 or something. But it wasn’t our war to win; it was Germany and Japan’s to lose.
Your point of view wasn’t wrong, I just gave some insight in how I look at things. Endless involvement in overseas actions are a drain on America’s finest and our national treasure. I was low person on the Totem Pole for a lot of these adventures so I didn’t have a say in anything. I did the job and that’s it. After Gothic Serpent, I had a real nasty taste in my mouth and I couldn’t understand why we were doing things on the cheap when we should have gone in balls to the wall with everything we had available, then gotten out. Although I am not a real fan of Colin Powell’s politics, I liked his “doctrine” of using overwhelming force in foreign operations.
Politically, I am an old fashioned Conservative, with a few Libertarian leanings - Not a RINO and a believer in going into every possible foreign intervention. For the most part now days, I just want the government out of my life and let me maintain a reasonable, rational and responsible existence. I do just fine without them. The only ties I maintain are reunions with my Army buddies from my aviation days, and I give presentations to college ROTC units, about various operations during my career. This is all volunteer.
Every little bit helped. Lots of people went above and beyond that day. Lots of people improvised solutions that were never part of the plan. And probably more than a few people lost their lives in great feats of heroism that greatly contributed to our success and nobody even saw it happen.
June 6 is probably one of those rare days where everyone gave a lot.
In 1940, the US began developing a bomber with a 3000 mile flight range.
In 1941, the US took up “defending” Iceland’s neutrality.
In 1942, the US began developing the atomic bomb.
In 1943, the US began adopting that 3000 mile bomber to carry an atomic bomb.
The first target intended for the atomic bomb was Berlin.
The distance - by air - from Reykjavik to Berlin - is just under 1500 miles.
So even if Germany somehow managed to successfully defend against the invasion of Normandy all the way to Belfast, the US would have still been able to vaporize Berlin just over a year later with a bomber virtually immune to even the most powerful ground-based defense and able to fly at altitudes where few Axis aircraft could intercept them.
Yeah, they really did get lucky despite the vicious soviet invasion and partitioning. Not to suggest they US / allied invasion from the west wasn’t also hard on them but honestly it was the best deal on the table and the preferred enemy to surrender to. Also given the level of atrocity the Germans engaged in, things like The Marshall Plan were incredibly benevolent.
GREAT show on HBO (check for times - released this week for the 75th Anniversary of D-Day) these days called, “The Cold Blue.” About the 8th Army Air Force and their work in Europe, it combines William Wyler’s original footage, and commentary from living veterans today. GREAT stuff.
Interesting further trivial note, the B-29 was initiated by Boeing as a private project without a specific DOD requirement–much like the B-17 was designed way ahead of its time because those same engineers knew the converted airliner Douglas was planning (B-18 Bolo and B-23 Dragon were both basically weaponized models of the DST/DC-2/DC-3 family) wouldn’t have the range or payload required for what was coming.
Don’t quote me, but I’m pretty sure the planners reasonably expected that at least one of the beach landings would fail, which is why they had 4 total. In fact, there was some surprise that our guys had as much success as they did at Omaha, which says something about their resolve. There were also definitely some cracks in the Atlantic Wall in various sectors that we were able to exploit that greatly helped with overall success.
As for invading Calais, that’s an interesting “what if?” question. While casualties would have been much greater, who knows, the war may have been shortened by a few months. The German units at Calais were eventually the ones the Allies had to face in the hedgerows, anyway. A lot of combat to secure a deep-water port would’ve been unnecessary, too. Realistically, Normandy was about as big of a gamble as anyone was willing to take. Calais would’ve required at least twice the men and resources.
I know it’s generally accepted that the bomb was meant for Germany, but I don’t think it’s clear cut that we would’ve used it there first. Let’s be honest, the American public would’ve been much more disinclined to using the bomb on Europe than on Japan. Say the Bulge didn’t happen and Germany was able to hold the Allies with those units until August, '45. Roosevelt may well have used the bomb on Germany, but he would’ve been dead by then. Would Truman have?
First, there were five landings: Utah & Omaha (US), Sword & Gold (UK), and Juno (Canada). The number and location of the landings was more likely predicated on where beaches appropriate for landing were located and how wide (and therefore how many men could be put ashore as rapidly as possible) those beaches were. If the allies could land sufficient troops at any one beach, the other four landings could have floundered or failed.
Second, the Battle of the Bulge almost certainly made the war longer, not shorter.
Third, the American public gave zero shits what happened to the civilian population of Germany in 1945: The British and Americans had been bombing German cities since 1941 - including firebombing - and Germany was still slinging the odd buzzbomb or ballistic missile at London; the American public neither knew nor cared what sort of suffering the German public was going through. And the American public didn’t care at all about German civilians until about mid-way through the Berlin Airlift in 1947.
What’s your reasoning for the Bulge extending the war? I can’t imagine how squandering some of the most elite units left in the Wehrmacht prolonged the war. Also, look to the Dresden bombing for proof that the public was not sold at all on that level of destruction, let alone an atomic bomb over Europe.
Nobody cared about Dresden then and nobody cares about Dresden now, except for people who are all, “Boohoo, muh poor Nazis.” “Holocaust? But muh Dresdens!”
The Bulge extended the war because the Germans went on the offensive at a time and place that the allies did not suspect or expect. The allies had run out to the end of their logistical tail once more. The weather gave the Germans cover from allied aircraft. The attack sent the allies reeling. Had the Germans simply dug in, they would have been obliterated by allied bombing and artillery at a time and place that suited the allies, not the Germans. You don’t win wars or battles by letting the enemy pick when and where the engagement will occur. Especially not when you’re the German army. Had the Germans sent the armies ear-marked for the Bulge back to the East, they would have maybe been a bit of a speedbump to the Red Army.
By the time of the Battle of the Bulge, Germany had one ally left in Europe: Hungary. And they were in the midst of being swallowed up by the Soviet Union. Romania, Italy, and Finland had all changed sides. The only thing not fighting the Bulge might have accomplished for the Germans would be having French, British, American, Polish, &c. troops that much closer to Berlin by the time the Soviets sacked it.
Hungary had tried to quit the Axis, but the Nazis Otto Skorzeny had taken the government hostage and turned Budapest into a speed bump for the Soviets.
The war in the west could have been over in late 1944 if not for the logistics limitations on the Anglo-American forces, primarily fuel. Sundance nailed the sheer importance of the deep water port and the relative wisdom of the Germans to concentrate their forces in the big ports. Some of the bypassed ports weren’t captured by VE Day.
The Battle of the Bulge absolutely prolonged the war… However, I have serious doubts the Germans in the Bulge did more damage than Montgomery’s repeated strategic disasters - the slow Normandy breakout, the assinine Market Garden attack to secure the Rhine crossing and then the unpardonable failure to secure the Scheldt Estuary (which likely would have allowed Bradley to capture Berlin).
I believe nuking Germany was less certain than Japan. The Nazis were hated, but the Japanese were the reason the US went to war. Much like Sherman’s March to the Sea being rough, there was no fury like the western Union soldiers when they got to Columbia SC (the first state to secede). Nuking Cousin Fritz and Aunt Helge’s hometown was a different thing than some unknown Shinto shrine in faraway Japan. If you look at the nuclear targeting contributions from Sec of State Henry Stimson, a pre-war Japanese expert, versus the early criteria of no cultural targets in Germany, there is a very strong racial animus against the Japanese. However, the point there were few good targets left in Germany by late 1944. The Mighty Eighth had decimated nearly every worthwhile target.