I tried the AK again, but I just can't like it.

This is the second time I tried to shoot the AK, and I am unimpressed to say the least. I purchased the AK after reading here how the Hungarian SA-85Ms were some of the better built AKs currently on the market, so when I found a 100% FEG built post-ban I grabbed it up. I added a K-Var warsaw furniture kit, Tapco G2 trigger group to get it in compliance, and a nice Specter 3 point sling. I then ordered up 1000rds of Golden Tiger to feed it.

From todays range trip I decided the following…

The safety location sucks on the AK. Period.

I can’t charge the weapon while shouldered like you can with the AR15, and the bolt does not hold open on an empty magazine making quick reloads difficult.

The sight radius is poor, and I had trouble getting good hits with the AK. This may be my fault for not spending enough time with it. I also had trouble getting a fast sight picture with it, and dislike the hooded front sight.

Recoil hindered my follow up shots. I may have been spoiled by the AR-15s recoil system, so call me a wuss if you want. I am 6’00 and 240lbs, and I was shooting with a good stance and still had lots of trouble with it.

The gun was very reliable, not one malfunction in the 150rds that have been fired through it. I know the previous owner personally and he fired 10rds thru it and I fed it another 140 myself without issue.

I just can not force myself to like the weapon. I wish I would have shot it before I dropped the money on furniture, trigger, ammo, and mags, I would have saved some work and money. I guess I should probably keep it with the pending legislation, but I doubt I will shoot it again. One more gun destined for the back of the safe…

Hey its not for everyone.

You have to evaluate what works for you and go with that.

For me, my AK(s) are my “go-to” guns.

Don’t get me wrong, I have a LOT of $$ tied up in it, so I wish I could get the hang of it. I guess its just down to personal preference.

I’m not bashing anyone who likes the AK platform, I am just venting because I am too lazy to adjust.

Some thoughts:

  1. The AK is not an M4. The AK is not an M4. The AK is not an M4
  2. Reach over the top or under and behind the magazine with your off hand (if right handed) to charge the rifle
  3. Sight radius is the same as an M4 (within an inch or two), but I think because it’s a notch in post instead of peep and post sight makes shots a little more difficult for us who have trained mostly on the peep and post.
  4. If you have difficulty picking up the front sight, get an XS 24/7 sight for the front (not the Big Dot, unless the 24/7 post sight isn’t enough). Also, learn to use the ears of the front sight base as a sighting system (a rough one) for close in shots.
  5. Shoot it more and you’ll get used to recoil. If not, get yourself a 5.45 or 5.56 AK.

I second the 5.45 vote. I built a Bulgarian 5.45 rifle and I haven’t shot my 7.62 rifles since. Zero zip nada recoil with the brake. It literally is like shooting an pump up air rifle. Plus the ammo is super cheap.

Fast reloads? Watch this - http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Catch22/catch22/?action=view&current=alternatedrill.flv

You CAN reload an AK as fast as an AR platform rifle - it just takes more practice. I do agree that the stock safety sucks, but there are aftermarket and homegrown fixes for that.

Although I dearly love my Armalite, for TEOTWAWKI I’m grabbing my AKs. They just run forever with zero upkeep. Plus if you have to you can literally beat someone to death with the empty mags - try that with an AR :stuck_out_tongue:

Disconnector

I can understand your frustration but an AK class with Larry Vickers or Pat Rogers may well change your opinion on running the gun.

In an effort to be open minded and learn something here…

My SA-85M does not have a threaded barrel or any muzzle device. I wonder if a good brake or flash supressor with a closed bottom would increase my follow up shot times, and reduce the recoil.

I think the rear sight being further away from my eye may be a problem as well. My vision is not the best as-is anyway. Maybe a Mojo rear sight, with the XS 24/7 front would solve that problem.

I guess it comes down to this big question…

Do I want to keep modifying the rifle to try and solve my personal issues, or should I just trade it for another M4 and be done with it before I put even more money into it.

Thanks for your time, I guess I will sleep on it.

I have AR and AK. I find that they are two totally different animals.

If you evaluate them on their own merrits, they are both OK.

As for AK issues. I don’t like the sights. When moving fast, I shoot it high.

As far as AK recoil, although I notice the difference, it doesn’t bother me. I write it off as more terminal performance. I have shot a deer with a 7.62x39, I was very happy. I am sure the 5.56 can take a deer, but the 7.62 was very effective.

I guess I must ask you, do you modify your M4 to suit your needs or do you leave it bone stock?

Opie, Snake RAH is dead on - IT’S NOT AN M4. Once you get past that hurdle and learn how to run it like an AK, you might actually LIKE it.

I was pretty much of the same opinion about AK’s up until a month or so ago, but I emptied my mind, so to speak, and did some research and asked around about how to run an AK like an AK. Once I did that, I was amazed at how effective it can be. I still can’t shoot as accurately with its irons as I can with an Aimpoint/M4, and I still can’t reload it as fast as an M4… But I’m only about 1 second slower in drills that include a reload and I’m plenty “combat accurate” inside 100m. I still like the M4 better, but I feel pretty confident with an AK now.

The trick is to forget everything you know about M4’s beyond sight alignment and trigger control. Once I did that, I actually found it kinda fun to learn how to run a new system.

If only that were true.

As for optics, try a Kobra sight on your AK.

In typical Sov fashion it is not “elegant” but it is brutally tough. Plus the 4 different reticles are extremely useful.

On the negative side it is heavy and the “chin-weld” sucks.

You can also get a railed gastube to put an Aimpoint or Eotech on, but I would worry about the extreme heat.

Personally, I find the post and notch sights to actually be MORE accurate for me than the aperture sights on the M4. I grew up with a .22 that I shot constantly and the AK sights are pretty much just like them. On the downside, they are considerably slower in my hands.

YMMV,

Disconnector

Buy a 5.45 and forget about recoil all together.

In a true “survival” situation, the 7.62 would be a more useful hunting tool though. 30 rounds of 30-30 performance is a useful thing.

Disconnector

Yes, the AK sights DO suck.

Fortunately, there are manufacturers like Ultimak who have solved this weakness with a great way to mount a red dot in a scout configuration.

No no. Not just the sights. Everything sucks about the AK except for it’s reputation as a gun that will go bang every time. Mag changes are slower, the ergonomics are nearly non-existant, materials used are often of poor quality, fit and finish…but it goes bang*.

I don’t like my AKs. But I know how to run them.

*unless it’s an SLR-106 :smiley:

Perhaps a review of AK terminal performance would be useful:

The 5.45 x 39 mm Russian M74 53 gr FMJ boat-tailed bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket surrounding an unhardened steel core and a small 5 mm long empty air-space under the bullet nose. Its typical muzzle velocity is 3066 f/s. In contrast to the older 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS which it replaced, the 5.45 x 39 mm M74 53 gr FMJ commonly exhibits very early yaw in tissue, at approximately 2.75", but no deformation or fragmentation. In both uncomplicated extremity and torso wounds, the very early yaw allows the bullet to travel sideways through the body, increasing permanent tissue destruction and temporary cavitation effects. A small punctate entrance wound is present and the exit wound may be punctate, oblong, or stellate depending on the bullet yaw angle on exit. Penetration is approximately 21.6”. 5.45 x 39 mm M74 is a lot like an early yawing 5.56 mm bullet that does not fragment–for example M995, but without the AP capability. Well designed fragmenting 5.56 mm bullets, like the Hornady 75 gr or Nosler 77 gr OTM’s, that consistently offer early upset in tissue are superior to 5.45 x 39 mm. I am unaware of any good terminal ballistic testing on commercial 5.45 x 39 mm loads.

In discussing 7.62x39 mm FMJ, the question is always which one, as their characteristics are highly variable.

In fact, there is a bit of a controversy brewing in some of the AAR’s coming in from OCONUS on the effectiveness of 7.62 x 39 mm ammunition. Initially, this appears somewhat strange, as there may be more forensic data available regarding wounds caused by the Russian 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ than for any other rifle cartridge. The original 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS 120.5 gr FMJ boat-tail bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket covering a large steel core and a typical muzzle velocity of 2340 f/s. In tissue, it typically travels approximately 9.8 to 10.6" point forward before beginning significant yaw. Most uncomplicated wounds of the torso and extremities have small punctate entrance and exit wounds and exhibit minimal internal tissue disruption since the bullet does not deform or fragment and usually exits before yaw occurs. Total penetration is around 29.1”. WDMET (Wound Data and Munitions Effectiveness Team) collected extensive forensic data on over 700 7.62 x 39 mm gunshot wounds during the Viet Nam war. The predominant feature of this cartridge is the MINIMAL amount of damage it produces in soft tissue wounds, on par with FMJ handgun wounds such as those produced by 9 mm M882 ball. We also have extensive law enforcement data, as this cartridge has been used extensively in illicit activity. For example, in the 17 January 1988 Stockton school shooting, 30 of 35 kids who were shot lived. Of the five that died, all were shot in critical structure–head, heart, spine, aorta and none had damage to any organ not directly hit by a bullet.

However, not all 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets are of the original steel core construction. Significantly increased tissue damage is produced by the early yaw seen with several 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ lead core bullets, including:

– Yugoslavian M67 124 gr FMJ, flat based, copper-jacketed, lead core bullet which travels only 3.5" in tissue before yawing

– Chinese (PRC) 7.62 x 39 mm 123 gr FMJ, copper-jacketed, lead core bullets which begin their yaw after only 2 to 2.5" of travel in tissue.

– Czech and several types of Western commercially produced lead core 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ yaw within the first 2 to 3 inches of travel in tissue.

In both uncomplicated extremity and torso wounds, the very early yaw of these lead core 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets allow the projectiles to travel sideways through the body, substantially increasing permanent tissue destruction and temporary cavitation effects compared to the standard 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS 120.5 gr FMJ. These early yawing lead core 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets cause wounds very similar to the 5.45 x 39 mm Russian M74 53 gr FMJ bullets discussed above, however, the larger size of the 7.62 x 39 mm bullets results in a bigger permanent cavity compared to 5.45 x 39 mm bullets.

The differences in terminal effects seen in recent combat with 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ wounds can likely be explained by the different terminal effects caused by the various types of FMJ construction.

When one moves to a expanding/fragmenting design in 7.62 x 39 mm, terminal performance is significantly enhanced. The best 7.62 x 39 mm loads we have tested to date are the Winchester 123 gr JSP (X76239) and the Lapua 125 gr JSP. Out of a 16” barrel they perform somewhat like lightweight .30-30 loads:

Lap 125 gr JSP
Bare Gelatin: vel=2316 f/s, pen=17.3”, RD=.62”, RL=.43”, RW=122.6 gr
Car Windshield: vel=2323 f/s, pen=14.8”, RD=.60”, RL=.40”, RW=110.6 gr

Win 123 gr JSP
Bare Gel: vel=2253 f/s, pen=14.4”, rd=0.56”, rw=90.1gr
Pretty much the same results when going through car windshields.

Of note, most of the “cheap” Russian JHP/JSP ammunition offers poor terminal performance. The one that seems to work is the 7.62x39mm Saspan 124 gr JHP (Ulyanovsk Machinery Plant; 8M3 bullet); from a 16” AKMS the data is:

BG: vel=2297 f/s, pen=15.0”, Max TC=10cm@18cm, RD=0.63”, RW=100.5gr"

Because of the larger permanent cavity and greater bullet mass, the 7.62 x 39 mm JSP’s offer somewhat better performance than the .223 bonded JSP’s, like the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw used in the Federal Tactical loads. These 7.62 x 39 mm JSP loads are a good choice for use against car windows and should also be outstanding for hunting deer and other similar size game.

In a CQB setting, the expanding 7.62 x 39 mm bullets tend to retain their mass and are very likely to exit target. As long as a 5.56 mm FMJ or OTM upset in tissue, they are unlikely to exit the torso; likewise, 6.8 mm TMJ, OTM and PT will fragment and are unlikely to exit the torso. All will work, although I would prefer the 6.8 mm for this settting. While 7.62 x 39 mm has the potential to offer good terminal performance when using well engineered ammunition and it offers better intermediate barrier penetration than 5.56 mm, 6.8 mm is generally more accurate, flatter shooting, longer ranged, and demonstrates better terminal performance than all 5.45 x 39 mm, 5.56 mm and 7.62 x 39 mm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBafWG6vvyM

Lots of great info and advice here Opie.

As far as the safety, it does what it was designed to do, it keeps crap out of the action when on safe, and it can be manipulated by some Soviet conscript stationed in Siberia wearing mittens…

But, yes, it does suck for fast manipulation. The Blackjack SWIFT levers are great, and I can work them as fast as I can an AR safety, with my hand on the pistol grip.

GotM4 has one on his SLR-106FR:

The rear sights might hinder guys who grew up shooting apeture style sights, but I grew up shooting AK’s, it’s just what you’re used to. If you put an UltiMak gas tube on your rifle you can then mount a decent optic.

If you thread the muzzle for a 14/1mm LH thread, you can install an AK-74 style brake, but one designed for 7.62mm projectiles, and it will significantly cut down on your reaction time and felt recoil.

Again, it’s all what you’re used to. Get some more trigger time on the rifle and it might grow on you.

Hey Templar,

What’s a decent '74 type brake for a 7.62mm? Some of them look kinda junky in the pics I’ve seen on the net. I’m debating between a M16A1 FS or a '74 type brake on my SAR-1 - Any suggestions?

thanks.

You’ll need this adapter to go from 14/1mmLH threads to a 24mm RH thread of the '74…

http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16256&cat=272&page=1

And then you can use the brake/fh that Noveske based/ripped off from the Bulgarians…

http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16349&cat=289&page=1

Chris Butler makes a clone of the Russian 7.62x39mm AK-103 brake that is sold through RPB…

http://www.ak-103.com/parts.html

Hope that helps.