It was pointed out to me that you guys finally went over and posted on BARF…
I went and looked. Here is my opinon:
You are doing yourself a disservice wasting your time there. It is not a place for unbiased opinions.
Thanks!
edited to add: I am not suggesting that you shouldn’t market to hobby shooters. I am saying to exercise extreme caution in what you say there - despite how outrageous it may get.
What is BARF?
A website that someone sent me a link to.
It doesn’t sound very good, but it seems useful, if you’re a pet owner.
Agree.
In the canine community the B.A.R.F. diet is “bones and raw food” diet that some feel strongly about. All naturally raised and feed dogs…I know it has nothing to do with the link, but thought I would add the info.
I don’t see how you can really avoid being involved there if you really want to make an impact in the industry. Unfortunately they’re going to have to battle some pretty strong bias and “fight” with their hands tied while the other side is allowed to do as they please.
I’d strongly suggest following the Gemtech model, if someone were asking me.
Like it or not, if you want to have any kind of real market share in the commercial AR market, you have to have a presence on TOS.
Then there’s the VLTOR model…
it seems to be working for them.
AFAIK Vltor isn’t really involved anywhere, are they? But they certainly have marketing by proxy down pretty well. And while I don’t know their market share, I’d say that Magpul, with an active presence there, is at least better known.
One way or another, whether directly or by proxy, it’s just good business sense to cater to the hobby shooters. As mentioned in the “diminishing quality” thread, that’s where the market really is. Finding a way to navigate it and stay out of the childish games that are so pervasive in the industry is the key.
With respect to the counterpoint, I agree with Rob here. If not “cater to,” at least “show up.”
And it’s definitely where the money is. It seems to me that success in the “hobby” market funds attention to “niche” (for lack of a better term) markets.
Right. Employ a commercial-grade BS filter, just like the single-serving BS filters we all use when we visit TOS.
I know that Trey from Knight’s had some issues over there. When he first logged on he felt like his father’s company was being attacked and he went on the offensive trying to “protect” their name. He has since, from what I can tell, left entirely for friendlier waters. Obviously Knight’s isn’t hurting for business right now, and I think that many people there probably still see the commercial market as a mild distraction at best (and probably used the reaction Trey got to further cement this position), and their name alone will always garner them a few customers, but if they decide they want to make a big splash they’re going to have to learn to navigate that environment.
Michael from Charles Daly (or KBI) has done a great job so far of navigating the internet forum environment and has even used it as free market research. I don’t think they’ve faced any real internet adversity yet (other than, perhaps, not being one slot to the left of S&W on the chart 
) but so far they’re really using the medium to their advantage.
thank you all for your comments and concern. All the points you brought up are valid . We went on in one thread just to see if they would allow us to register and to see if we could put any comments up concerning our products without the kool aid brigade attacking us 
We were not welcomed there with open arms so we will keep our time there to a minimum.
thank you
the mysterious and very secret
ADM
I do not believe that for a second.
What good does being a sponsor on BARF get a company? Raw numbers of members means nothing when 99% of them spend there time in the GD forum discussing the pending Mexican/Chinese invasion of America, Why it’s totally correct for gas to be +$4 a gallon, How Al-Qaeda has penetrated Hilliary Clinton’s election campaign staff, What they had for dinner, and comparing American LE to Nazi death camp guards.
Do you think these members are actually buying AR/AK weapons, accessories, optics, ammo, etc?
On any given night M4C usually has equal if not better numbers of actual shooters/potential customers logged in or visiting. We protect our sponsors from the industry trolls so rampant on other forums also. Thats why M4C has it’s “Contact the Dealer/Manufacturer 1st” rule in place. Hell, on BARF there sponsors get assaulted every day with complete BS and nobody EVER tries to help them - UNLESS - BARF itself is getting a piece of the pie. Then a staff member is placed directly on watch to cover them, no matter what crime they have committed. It’s happened many times.
The only exception is companies like LaRue who rule using there own little army of supporters to start threads, post hundreds of pictures, attack competitors, ETC. Some of these guys are compensated, others are just following the herd but the end result is the same - other companies get snuffed out.
99% of the companies involved in this industry would be far better off spending there advertising money elsewhere.
There are a few companies that I have suggested not waste ANY time over there.
Did you pay the fee for vendors to do business on TOS or did you just expect to be able to be able to do as you wish without having to pay ?
lakai
if you read our initial statement when we came to this site it will explain what transpired.We do not plan on going to that site to advertise or sell .I went to that site to clear up some misinformation . Are you saying we should have to pay to tell the truth?
thank you
ADM
Our experience on TOS has been an interesting one.
In August of 2007 I sent an email to admin there requesting information on banner advertising. I never received a reply. I sent a follow-up in September, still no answer.
As many of you know, in late October I started a thread that requested feedback on certain features that we were considering for our new line of AR’s. This thread drew a lot of attention with many of the early posts critical of some or our other guns while others actually contributed with a positive dialog. I would say posts were about 70/30, with 70% being worthwhile.
By late December, and after about 20,000 views and a few hundred posts, a mod posted that this thread was nothing more than advertising/marketing and since we were not paid advertisers he was locking the thread.
I sent him a PM, informing him of my several attempts to become an advertiser, all to no avail. He checked with his “partners” and came back to me with a sincere apology. They then unlocked the thread, accepted our check and we became an “Industry Partner”. That thread has now exceeded 30,000 views.
Since then it has been a mixed bag. Each month we get several hundred visitors to our website that come from the banner ad on TOS. And each month we get super positive posts and super ignorant ones. Have we actually gotten any more sales out of this venture? Who knows… What I do know is that it was critical for us to get our message out that we were now in the AR segment and we should be taken seriously. In that respect I would have to say we succeeded.
Contrast all of the above with how we came about to being a supporter of M4C. To the guys credit here (though it appeared somewhat arrogant to me at the time), M4C would not even consider our advertising until our gun could be seen and reviewed. That was the first time (and I have been in the gun business over 30 years) that someone had wanted to see the merits of one of our products before they would accept our advertising. Fortunately, our gun has lived up to the (our) hype and we have been welcomed here. I now see the wisdom of the M4C policy.
I can tell you that the discourse here is at another level entirely when compared to TOS, and several other sites as well. We have learned more here, been treated with more respect here, and I think been taken more seriously here. But here we had to earn it while elsewhere they first wanted to earn from us.
We were the new kid on the block in the AR segment and so had a steep learning curve on the guns themselves and on the various sites to insure getting our message out. When it comes time to renew our advertising on these many sites, then we will have to make some hard decisions.
However, if M4C will be willing to have us stick around, we will always want to be a part of this place.
Sincerely,
Great post, Michael!
WOW. What interesting and insightful post. I mean that sincerely Charles Daly.
Michael
Thank you for your very insightful well thought out comments . We are also very pleased to be here . We look only to help this community in a postitive and constructive way.
thank you
ADM