So i have realized that my grip isnt going to be satisfactory anymore, and i need to relearn everything that ive been doing for the past 6 years.
I have favored the weaver stance, with my dominant thumb resting on the thumb safety of my 1911 and my support thumb resting on my dominant thumb. I have had excellent results with this grip, but i have found that with my higher recoiling Dan Wesson CCO 1911, my support thumb slips off of my dominant thumb and contacts the slide release, therefore preventing the slide from locking to the rear. This is unacceptable.
i tried firing with my support thumb pointing forward as Todd Jarrett preaches, but it feels awkward having my support thumb free floating. It also requires me to have an isocoles upper body, which i am not used to, though i am not against it. Am i doing something wrong?
i have read forums and studied pictures, but it is hard to discern what is for competition and what is for purely tactical use. So please post up pics of the handhold you recommend. Remember it is NOT for competition, it is for self defense and tactical purposes. NOTE: my lower body WILL stay slightly bladed as per weaver.
thanks guys.
There are a lot more people on here that are a lot better/ smarter at training than me, but I will highly recommend this article:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/24/tactics_training_combatg_100306/
Only recently have I actually heard of this referred to by name (either the “combat grip” or the “Leatham/ Enos” grip) but it is what we train at the LE agency where I am employed and serve as an instructor. As far as I know, this is the universal grip taught to all LEO’s today, and I find it equally useful for combat training and competitions. Hope that helps… I found the article to be the clearest and most concise explaination of the grip principle I’ve ever seen or heard.
I have tried the thumbs forward technique, and that looks like that ive gotta do… but my issue is my weak hand thumb. It feels very awkward; either its floating in the air, or its contacting the frame, but during recoil it slides off. What am i doing wrong?
While I agree with the idea of getting as much meat on the gun as possible, I think the idea of the off-hand thumb being forward is more to promote getting any kink out of that same wrist and making it so that the support hand/arm are as in-line with how the bones of the arm orient. Physiologically, I think it does more for the shooter and the grip in terms of recoil management and the like than anything that thumb is doing, in and of itself.
If your thumb slips off or hangs in the air, and isn’t interfering with anything else (control features of the gun in particular), it’s possible that the biggest impact that may actually have on you is you mentally vapor-locking on it because it doesn’t fit with some notional checklist that’s really based on what works for the middle of the population bell curve. There’s left and right sides to that bell curve, and people that fall within them.
If my left thumb is on the stippled index point I have on my guns, I know my wrist is straight…and that’s where it ends.
The thumb of my support hand rests very lightly on the frame, and I also have an index stippled into all of my Glocks. I can’t say that I conciously note when I’m in contact with that spot, but it is definitely there and I’m always on it. I also had the luxury of learning to shoot a pistol with that grip so I really don’t know any other way, especially another way that feels right.
From M4C member…
Pt1
http://www.youtube.com/user/ssdsurf#p/u/21/lTc5OG0AI64
Don’t let yourself get caught up too much on “combat” techniques being different from “competition” techniques.
Competitive shooters have been driving the evolution of tactical shooting for years.
John Shaw, Jerry Barnhart, Rob Leatham, Todd Jarrett, Bennie Cooley… plenty of these guys brought in competitive shooting techniques to the special operations community, and they have kept using them because they work!
Speed via increased control on the gun is an asset on the clock, AND on the two-way range.
My guess is you’re still trying to do the whole weaver “push pull” junk, and by focusing on pulling back with your supporting hand, you’re not able to apply as much “side to side force” with it, instead.
Your supporting hand should be pinching side to side on the gun, and not pulling it back towards your body.
The video’s posted above by tb-av explain my thoughts. Being in my mid 40’s and having carried a revolver for the first few years of my career I have adapted styles to my current technique, which I describe as the modern isosceles stance using the modern combat or thumbs forward grip. There are definitely small variations and as an example some will not contact the frame with the support thumb, some will contact the frame as a reference point with slight pressure and some will even use the support thumb on say the Glock to put downward pressure on the frame to help control muzzle rise.
I am not a competition shooter and describe myself as a combat style or tactical style shooter. However as Jim D mentions, the competition world often drives the tactical world and I take much from competition shooting and incorporate it into what I do. I will readily admit that the grip that I use can be directly accredited to Rob Leatham and Brian Enos. It is an incredibly effective way for a combat shooter to grip the weapon. The best technique that I am aware of right now.
You should use the isosceles. Not sure anyone wants to debate Weaver vs Iso - I know I certainly don’t - so that’s all I’ll say.
Every change is likely to produce some feeling of awkwardness, and don’t be surprised if your performance suffers in the short term. Don’t not do something because it initially feels awkward. Put the reps in before you discard it.
The modern iso has a slight blade. The weak side foot (or other strong side foot for you NLPers) is slightly in front of the other. I’m not sure if that’s enough blade for you. If not, I’d be curious why you want more blade.
Good luck
Dont get too jacked up over a “stance”. Defensively or more accurately, offensively, pursue a fighting stance if you can. One that can allow you to run your gear, limbs, and get your eyes open to see as the situation calls. It allows you to have structure to manage recoil and drive your gun.
The same is for your grip. Recoil management and driving the gun. Get your support hand almost literally cranked into the side of the gun, bend the elbow as you need to absorb as it will be raised tot he side a bit, and drive it from target to target with your eyes. Thumb placement is as it is when you use that support hand properly.
A couple pics of both sides of my grip. My grip is unique to me but I think you can see the gist of what works for me. If you look you will notice that my thumb actually rides on top of the ledge on a Glock, this combined with the cant of my left hand helps manage recoil allowing me to shoot faster.
I’m a visual learner so maybe these pics will help you…
