I am looking to build a PSD and a home defense weapon. This thread will be about the possibilities and advantages that a shotgun will give me. I am not recoil sensitive and have experiance with pumps and autos.
What will a 12 gauge do in a house with multiple, determined, possibly wearing stolen or ebay procured armor, armed, home invaders that a carbine wont? What will happen to an armor wearing invader? Will my shotgun be useless against him? I will have to clear the top floor of my home to save the youngsters. This might suggest that the shorter barrel is worth the NFA tax.
I am considering a full size 20 inch mossy, a 14 inch mossberg 590 A1, Benelli M4 full size/ or the 14 inch NFA Benelli. Over penetration is NOT an issue with my location and my tests showed that buckshot will penetrate a few walls either way.
Why do you use a shotgun other than to lessen the over penetration for a city enviornment. B.c of my location, I am looking for the best weapon without consideration for colateral damage.
Final question is in regards to bayonet use. Bayonets have been proven in the trenches correct? I noticed that the mossbergs have bayo lugs on them. What are the pros if any to have a bayo attached incase of a short stroke and or close bg in a hall? Would be better than using your pump as a bat right?
With all things considered, will a 12 gauge give me an advantage over a few criminals that have pistols or would the job be better served by a carbine?
The shotgun is probably not the best bet for armor wearing bad guys. The majority of vests out there now days are rated to stop slugs and buck. Regarding overpenetration…shotguns using buck and slug tend to penetrate more than a carbine round, especially through interior walls. About the only thing a shotun has over a carbine is close range terminal effect on target, it is very powerful and does alot of damage.
As compared to a carbine, shotguns are generally heavier, have less amunition capacity and are slower to reload. On the upside, a fully tricked out shotgun will be significantly cheaper than a fully set up carbine (optic and light being the minimum for a carbine). Amunition will be cheaper as well, because if you go pump you can practice with light weight target, trap and bird shot loads.
As far as the bayonet, my 870 does not have one, but I can’t see any reason it would hurt to have one. Just one more tool in the close quarters tool box.
I did some research and it said that a vest will stop a slug but the impact will knock someone out. But then again I found a NYC case where a guy with a vest took two slugs to the vest and died as a third to the head. Money is no concern here my budget is unlimted for this.
My other half has an AK47 ready to go. She and many other females cant handle the weight/ recoil of a shotgun. She is quick and accuret with an ak. The recoil is close to an ar so for her its more reliable, larger round, and easier to use under stress.
I on the other hand can shoot anything within reason. I am just want to consider the shotgun as offering a in firefight advantage to one guy up against 2 or 3 home invaders.
If you are worried about body armor and not worried about collateral damage or over penetration, then maybe consider the following…assuming nothing you shoot will be able to penetrate the armor and hit a vital organ.
A 55 gr bullet traveling 3000 FPS develops approximately 1099 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.
A 75 gr bullet traveling 2600 FPS develops approximately 1125 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.
A 438 gr slug traveling 1600 FPS develops approximately 2490 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.
Assuming none of the above rounds penetrate the body armor, which one is most likely to get the bad guys attention when hit center of mass?
A shotgun would sit in an evidence locker “better” than a $$$$ SBR. I can’t see a situation for me anyway that cannot be solved by six rounds of 00 in the tube along with two slugs and four 00 buck in the side saddle…If I shoot someone in the chest and they still keep coming, I am shooting them in the head or switching to a slug…
Before I go to a bayonet, I am switching to a G19 with three mags, two with 124 grain ball and one with 147 grain jacket hollow points…
Everyone’s situation is different, you have to choose the platform best suited for your situation, plan, and train like hell… My situation and plan is to hold the second deck and call the cavalry (911). I do not have to clear anything, but if they get in, get past the dogs and step foot on the stairs, I am behind cover and they are in the funnel.
My deptartment issued level IIIA vest is rated to stop a slug. I would not want to be on the receiving end, but it will stop it anyway. If it would knock you out…perhaps but probably not likely. It would certainly cause some severe blunt force trauma and probably break the underlying bones, but you would and should be able to continue to fight. Probably would knock the wind out of you pretty well though.
In a 10 foot and under distance, I was thinking a bayonet would be the only thing I would have time to use. I wouldnt have time to even drawl a pistol so I thouht it was better than using the weapon as a bat. Were bayonets ever widely used as a CQB trench or urban tactic? I can do more damage with one when I dont have time to do anything else. Im not worried about the evidence locker. I want to win the fight and if that means a multi dollar auto shotgun or rifle has to be lost so be it.
Here’s what I think about when it comes to HD tools
How soon can I protect my house with said tool…Over the counter or 4-6months?
How much is it gonna cost me in terms of ammo, accessories, and training with said tool?
How reliable will it be when the time comes?
If something does happen and I end up using it, will I cry when the Police come and take it away as evidence and me possibly never getting it back or having it engraved with an electro pen to document evidence # for their evidence locker?
Honestly get what you feel comfortable with…if something happens and your woken up at 0 Dark 30…your not gonna rise to the occasion, your gonna fall back on what you know. Train with said item so it’s second nature. You can what if a situation to death…just train for the worst and hope for the best.
we’ve done the shotgun v carbine debate a few times… i suggest looking over a few of those.
but since this thread’s active- i’d never chose a shotgun over carbine, for any situation where i didn’t expect to have to breech, and more than once. what can a shotgun do that a carbine cannot? 5.56 loads generally penetrate structural materials less than buck or slugs, they defeat any body armor that can be defeated by shotgun and then some, you have 30 tries instead of 5 or 6, you can reload in a matter of 1 or 2 seconds if you’re so equipped, reloads are available in the form of one assembly instead of a pile of loose rounds to get fumbled, you can maintain a high rate of fire, and for 5 times longer, and if we’re talking about SBRs, you have much better muzzle clearance.
as to bayonets… i’m a big supporter of knowing how to fight with an empty weapon. muzzle strikes, butt-strokes, butt-slaps… you can fuck somebody up pretty good without a large chunk of sharp steel to potentially cut yourself with or get stuck in a wall or caught on a sofa, your pant leg, or whatever. plus, and this is coming from a guy who HATES the “legal ramifications” arguments and thinks there should be very little consideration put into it beyond “is my weapon legal to own?”- a 3am bayoneting will definitely raise eyebrows.
say your in a hallway, your child, wife, whatever is at the far end, between you is the BG. you have no choice you shoot now or someone you love dies. what do you want flying down that hallway.
Im confident enough with my carbine that i know at hallway distances i can put 1-2 rounds right where i want them, buckshot not so much.
i remember that… what ever happened to him? back when it happened, it sounded like things were really iffy for him.
in this case, however, he used the only weapon available to him. a bayonet is a bit different, and more questionable, when you figure its a weapon attached to a weapon. dunno… in my mind, it seems like something that just wouldn’t look good. if i thought it was truly a GOOD self-defense method, “look good” wouldn’t matter. but since it seems like more a liability than boon in an in-house, in-the-middle-of-the-night situation, why bother?
Hikingman, when you say PSD are you refering to the LWRCI 8" barrel Ar15? If size of the weapon is a concern a Handgun trumps the rifle and shotgun in that aspect. But consider this…Service Members have been clearing houses with long guns for a long time. I used a M16A2 in CQB school and an M16A4 in Iraq…sure a SBR would be nice but your more than capable with a long gun and this is coming from a guy with Trex Arms whos 5 foot nothing. As for the shotguns…4 inches off a barrel to me doesn’t justify the $200 tax stamp and wait for a HD Shotgun.
BKB…he was cleared, they said he had reasonable fear for his life and that the intruder had a long history of B&E and car jackings.
I use PSD or maybe I should say PDW to refer to a small auto type rifle. I still like the bayonet idea for walking down the hallway. Maybe not so much for if I had to clear an area but I could ditch it. It could be a collector gun hanging on the wall that was just handy to grab kind of like that samari sword. I just dont know if I should use a 16 inch or an SBR. Price is not a concern so I want to go with what will give me an advantage. I had a feeling that the SBR would be harder for them to grab.
Ditto. That said, I’d choose whatever you are most comfortable with. You said recoil wasn’t an issue, but which do you perform better with over the greatest anticipated distance (the longest shot inside your home)? Carbine or shotgun?