I own an SBR AR15.
If I remove the SBR upper, place a 16" upper on it…can I take the weapon out of state without getting a permission slip if I leave the SBR upper at home?
I’m 99% sure the answer is yes, but all my searches turned up nonsense about constructive possession and intent and all sorts of jibberish.
According to the ATF, your lower is the sbr. According to the state, the complete rifle is the sbr. If you take the 16" upper, the state won’t care and the atf won’t know. So…
…the ATF will know if I use it to defend myself.
Obviously I’m not going to walk into a police station two states away, hand them the rifle, and say “Is this legit?”
But if the weapon gets fired in self defense, I don’t want there to be a “Hey wait a minute, this is in the SBR registry…call a lawyer” moment.
According to BATF…while it’s on the NFA rolls you can’t remove from it’s state of residence without a Form 5320. The destination state has to not prohibit NFA firearms. You can, however, file a 5320 that covers you over the period of a year for multiple states. You possibly could rely on law enforcement ignorance but that’s your decision. Also your engraving on the lower may be a give away if your the manufacturer.
… mis-read post
delete
I hate doing this, without searching, but I am pretty sure someone posted a very clear ATF letter that said the SBR has to be an SBR configuration to be considered an SBR at any given point in time.
So if you have a 16" upper on it, it’s not an SBR in their eyes. If this gets contentious, I might be able to find the letter, but right now I am not interested in running it down. :big_boss:
Just take one of your other ar’s on the trip. Problem solved.
I thought I had seen posted the FAQ or similar that said the “registered firearm” meaning the lower can’t be taken out of state without letter. It’s not an SBR but it is still subject to ATF rules in the OP’s scenario of using a 16" simply to go out of state.
I also believe that someone here has told me that possession does not mean “in hand” it means you have continued and normal access like locked in a safe back home.
ETA:
ATF Home
Firearms
Frequently Asked Questions
National Firearms Act (NFA) — Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns
Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.
Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?
If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.
Ok. Find me a quality AR for sale anywhere. I only own two ARs. Both are SBR’d.
That’s exactly what I thought, but see below, I have heard this before as well…meaning if I own “any” of the SBR parts, even back home, its still subject to the ATF classifying it as an SBR.
The reason I ask:
As I said above, I only own two ARs both 5.56mm SBRs. I have a buddy with a 16" 300BLK upper for sale. If I buy this upper, put it on one of my lowers, can I bring it out of state with me (and the suppressor, but I know those don’t need paperwork)
Have a lawyer define “retains control of”…
If the SBR upper is in VA, and the lower is in Wyoming wearing the only upper you have a 16.x", are you in compliance?
I just file 5320.20’s and call it good, but again your lawyer needs to define “retains control of”…
I’ll try to find the thread but someone was replying directly to me as I recall and it sounded like they really knew what they were talking about. Perhaps even a lawyer. That is in regards to “possession”.
ETA: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Possession
Read those. forget about “intent”
There are two definitions of possession “actual”(hold in hand) and “constructive”(your property locked in a safe)
The BATF probably does not clarify but you can rest assured they mean constructive possession. The simple test would be to answer this question. Do you own an SBR? The answer is yes, therefore you constructively possess a SBR. Placing a 16" upper on will not negate that fact. You would have to sell your short uppers to remove constructive possession.
Otherwise when the ATF answered that question above they would simply have said “No, stick a 16” on and go out of state". They clearly mean constructive possession not physical actual possession.
That is my opinion .This is NOT legal advice. It’s simply my understanding.
Someone find the letter… I really don’t care enough.
Once again we have a clear cut case of people trying to complicate an easy matter.if you remove the SBR upper and you put a 16 inch copper on there it is no longer an SBR. So what it really comes down to is what is the definition of the word is? In addition to explain to me how someone in another state is magical going to know you have an SBR lower unless you tell them because they don’t have a magical database.
Shivan basically nailed it. Define “retains control or possession” of.
For the love of Pete. What is short about the barrel on a 16" upper. You have to have a Short Barrel to have a Short Barreled Rifle.
Is a sbr lower alone a short barreled rifle? Or does it only become a short barrel rifle when a barrel less than 16" is put on it? How can a rifle be declared a short barrel rifle when it has a 16.1’ barrel on it? If you trade uppers with someone, and therefore do not posses a upper with a barrel less than 16", then no way did you use a sbr. When you get back home, trade back. To get all warm and fuzzy about it, contact a good lawyer.
Geez guys…I got bored…