I employed my CCW tonight.

Training Training and Tactics
1

Gentlemen,

I do not want to go into specific details. I do not want to say anything that could cause me any problems down the road. While I did not break a single law, I’m sure you all can understand. With that said I would like to explain to others exactly what goes down when you pull a firearm in public and what NOT to do when confronted by law enforcement. I hope this is a good learning experience and you can avoid potentially fatal flaws that I made.

Tonight I intervened in a situation where a man was facing serious bodily harm/death at the hands of numerous assailants. After numerous attempts from myself and others to de-escalate the situation they continued to shout “We’re gonna kill you” while kicking the “victim” on the ground.

At that point I drew my firearm and yelled for them to get down on the ground. The assailants scattered quickly.

I then reholstered my weapon, picked up the gentleman and called 911. I told them “I am on the corner of xxx, I just drew my firearm in an attempt to save a man who was being assaulted by numerous people”. They asked if I fired the weapon, I said no. They asked a ton of questions, like if the man needed an EMS, etc. I answered them the best I could.

I was maintaining my SA, because there were still assailants walking around. I told 911 that.

Then they started asking me more questions and out of nowhere I hear something to the effect of “YOU HAVE THE GUN?”

I had no idea who this guy was. It was dark and I was still going with adrenaline. He was also in the “middle” of a crowd that had gathered. I’m sure he did identify himself as police, but I don’t remember it. (Definitely doesn’t mean it didn’t happen)

It took me about 5 seconds to respond with “Yes”. That was a little too long. Within seconds I was proned out on the ground being cuffed. It was extremely fast.

I was then put against the hood of a cruiser (seriously, 15 cars showed up less than 20 seconds apart from each other) and searched. Then placed in the back of a squad car.

They ran my DL, CCW, etc. And kept me in the vehicle for a few minutes.

Then the lead officer took me out of the vehicle, un cuffed me and asked me what happened. I explained and he said something to the effect of “Okay, you’re not being arrested. No laws have been broken. But you really messed up when I confronted you. When there is a gun involved everyone gets proned out. The first thing you should have done was throw your hands up and announce that you have a firearm.”

I was then escorted back to my vehicle.

I hope I got the point across without going into too much detail.

2

Glad you are ok. :eek:

3

The police didn’t announce themselves?

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4

Sounds like the cops entered the situation incorrectly. You should have known well in advance they were there.

What if you had thought that was a bg and tried to draw on him? Could have been bad.

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5

That’s why its always a good idea to carry something non-lethal , like pepper spray. A couple sprays of that into the crowd would have probably made them scatter away just as well.

What if that bg came at you and you had to shoot him? Or even worse, what if one of the bad guys saw you draw a weapon and one of them shot you first? I certainly would not want to wind up dead or have to pay the court fees for shooting someone who wasn’t causing seriously bodily harm to me, a family member, or close friend.

6

Absolutely. Hindsight is 20/20, and I think I would call 911 from a safe place next time for exactly the reasons you mentioned.

On the other hand, after I called 911 (which was about 2 minutes after the first person called and reporting someone with a gun) it still took them almost 3 minutes to arrive.

3 minutes is a long time to spend on the ground being kicked. Who knows what would have happened.

7

Why didn’t call 911 before drawing your gun?

8

Did the police say anything about identifying yourself as a CCL holder? Would that have made a difference if you had answered that way instead of a simple “yes”? Or would you still have been proned out and cuffed?

BTW…I’m in no way MMQBing. I am really interested to know if it would have made a difference…

9

Someone else had already called.

10

Not in my experience. People say anything, so you prone and cuff everyone then figure it out. Off duty cops and CCW holders get the same treatment. Right or wrong that is how most places work. Glad to hear it worked for you Euro.

11

That is how it should be. They have no idea who anyone is. Doesn’t really matter if you have a Concealed Carry permit, you could still smoke a cop. They just need to control the situation first then figure out who is good or bad.

From my own experience cops want you to interrupt the first words out of their mouth and scream that you are legally carrying a gun.

I put a homeless guy under citizens arrest after he nearly killed a guy (severe concussion, broken bones ext) didn’t draw my gun but i was extremely close to doing so. Cops showed up and I explained “the guy in front of me assaulted the guy down the road who is in the ambulance and oh yah i cc and have my gun on me.”

The cop flipped his shit even though he had been out of his car less then a minute before I notified him.

I think you did good. You should be proud. You acted as a sheep dog and might have saved that dudes life. A friend of mine (BJJ black belt) stepped in when a guy was on the ground getting stomped by five guys. He got his nose broken and was severly injured- he doesn’t carry a gun. But he believes he saved the victims life, he was unconscious and literally getting curb stomped.

12

Glad you’re OK. I would probably have minded my own business…but (don’t answer this publicly) I deduce you were at or near a bar?

13

Don’t want to get into a debate whether or not the Police announced themselves or not, I wasn’t there. To the OP, do you remember other sounds around you prior to being asked “are you the one with the gun?” I’ve been told and experianced myself that under stress, sometimes you can be being spoken to directly and you don’t even register it. It seemed to me that my brain was giving priority to focus on visual stimulus and audio was being moved to a secondary importance level…

14

Thanks for the insight. I am not sure that everyone understands the magnitude of the responsibility when carrying. Glad it worked out for you.

15

Thanks for posting this and fielding all these questions. Any scenario we can read about can only help the rest of us use the best judgement possible with our own ccw permits; every little bit helps.

16

non-lethal items… can be just that to the wrong person…

I have heard of people dying from taser hits due to pacemakers or even cochlear implants popping…

what happens if you blatantly spray OC into a crowd to disperse them and one of those people happens to be allergic or has asthma and has a fatal reaction?.. I’m not saying its a dumb idea to use it… I’m just saying deploying it for crowd control as a civilian is probably not a good decision…

you open yourself up to more litigation by using one of those devices as a civilian than you do by just using a firearm as the last possible resort…

carry a gun… if the situation arises when you have to deploy it… be prepared to drop someone… if you aren’t prepared to drop someone… the situation doesn’t warrant you to deploy it… if a person deserves a spray to the face or a tase to the chest to keep them off you… they probably deserve a hollow point to the chest just as well…

good on the OP for saving the man, unfortunately you got put down hard by the police but in those situations you’re heart is racing and you probably wouldn’t notice a bus blowing its horn at you…

its good thing you weren’t forced to take a life that night

17

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

18

Exactly. I only brought my firearm out to save the guy being assaulted, if the situation didn’t require lethal force being used, I wouldn’t have gotten involved in the first place.

I am very grateful both of the men got up and left when I showed up. I did not want to shoot anyone and I am very grateful I didn’t have to.

Absolutely. To be honest, I did not realize the response that would be generated from me using a firearm in public. I know it sounds like common sense, but there were at least 15 cruisers out there. And I didn’t even pull the trigger. Of course alot of that can be generated to the 911 calls that probably said “Some guy is gunning down three other guys on the street” :rolleyes:

I do not remember anything police-related happening around me prior to me visually seeing the officer with his weapon drawn. I didn’t see any vehicles or any personnel. And I was looking. The first thing I remember is someone asking if I had the gun. At that point the adrenaline had been building for a solid five minutes or so. I thought it would die down but it actually increased as I kept thinking “Where the hell are the cops?”

I did speak clearly and coherently to dispatch however, and I also had enough SA to recognize one of the assailants was actually returning to the scene. I was surprised. I did not have tunnel vision, didn’t black out, I wasn’t even shaking and I didn’t even have that gut wrenching nervous feeling in my stomach. Given the circumstances, i was unusually relaxed and coherent.

19

In part the attitude above is one thing that’s wrong with our society today. Unless things affect us personally, we don’s want to be bothered.

My hat is off to this gentleman!!! You showed big balls and little regard to your one well being both legally and physically when you decided to get involved. That’s a rare thing today.

It doesn’t take much to receive great bodily harm when being kicked by multiple guys.

I’m really glad it worked out well for you.

Let me ask you, did you ever speak to the victim and find out what started the whole thing or what started it all?
Did the cops say anything about you helping the guy out?

20

Attitude?

I never said I wouldnt have helped the guy, did I?. If it was a bar fight where a guy was getting beaten up for looking at a guys girlfriend, then most likely I wouldnt have helped, but if it was an old woman getting robbed and beaten by 3 guys, then Id step in. It all depends on the situation. But me personally, I wouldnt draw my handgun unless I inteded to use it and not to just scare someone away.

From what it sounds like in this situation, with a big crowd standing around and watching, Im guessing it wasnt a old woman getting beat down by 3 guys, or a little kid getting beat. So most likely I would have used something like pepper spray rather than pulling my gun out if it was necessary. And to comment to Reagans Rascals post, Id rather take the risk of using pepper spray in this situation, and hitting someone in the crowd with OC and facing the repercussions of that, rather than pulling my weapon and possibly having to shoot someone in the middle of a crowd, with a 9mm and facing the repercussions, ecspecially when Im not defending myself or a loved one.

And Im not knocking the OP, as I certainly dont know the whole situation. We are all here to learn and I just thought Id throw out the idea of having a non lethal means on your also if youre going to carry. A keychain pepper spray on your car keys can really come in handy.