I have a question regarding rapid firing. Is one supposed to fire, wait until the front sight comes back into focus, then fire again? Or does one rely on proper grip and muscle memory to keep the gun coming back to the same spot after firing? Combination of both? I ask because at the range, no matter how hard I focus, I can’t pick up the front sight and center it in the rear sight again after firing until about a second later. This is with the proper thumbs forward grip, arms straight out, knees slightly bent, squared to target, etc. Try as I might, I just can’t seem to speed up my firing cadence past one round every 1-2 seconds. With double taps (or controlled pair, or two well-aimed shots, whatever one wants to call it), my second shot seems a lot more like educated guesswork than a well-aimed shot.
It really would benefit you to take an introductory class through a reputable instructor. And to answer your first question, yes; for marksmanship training, front sight focus and you should have an acceptable sight picture for every shot fired. Stance and grip are essentially the two fundamentals which the shooter uses to control recoil. With these squared away, you will find yourself back on target with an acceptable sight picture almost effortlessly. In your case, grip seems to be the culprit. Proper grip has been described in many threads on this forum so I am not going to get into that but placing your thumbs forward is not enough to form a proper grip, you have to know where to put pressure and where pressure can hamper follow through.
My GUESS would be that you are not using your support grip to provide enough lateral pressure and so have significant sight wobble (side to side). An overly loose grip in general can cause the gun to flip and wobble excessively. A professional can watch you shoot and diagnose your issue quickly.
Make sure you are maintaining front sight focus throughout your sequence. Now, after your first shot, observe what your front sight is doing. Is it going up and down? Up and to the left? All over the place? Do this and report the results back here.
Finally don’t get too hung up on rapid fire, it seems like you need to focus on your fundamentals. Good on you for recognizing that something isn’t right if it is taking you so long to reattain an acceptable sight picture. Most folks just go full auto putting holes in the ceiling and thinking they’re all badass because they can pull the trigger quickly.
P.S. I’m in a bit of a hurry, sorry for the rushed post.
It’s distance and skill related.
If I am very close, I do not need to have a front sight focus.
As distance increases the necessity to focus on and fully align the sights will increase.
Grip and stance will permit the shooter to fire accurate shots faster.
At the distances at which you need to see sight alignment, you really need to be seeing it for every shot, otherwise, you are simply hoping/guessing/praying that the subsequent shots will land where you need them.
For more helpful information I need to know what size target you are trying to hit and how far away you are.
In the following video I am shooting at a 3x5 index card for the first two shots and an 8" circle for the last 4 at 7 yards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AppTRUuYaww
It ain’t a great run, I’m not particularly proud of it, but it was handy.
An excellent drill is called a Circle Drill. You don’t have to use circle, btw, but there has to be a well visible upper border of a target. You start with pistol pointed at the center, break the shot, keep watching your sight and as soon as you see it cross back that upper edge of your target, squeeze your next shot off. The string is 5 shots. Try to accelerate on your next sequence, but always let your front sight to dictate when to shoot next. The idea is to learn how to see your earliest opportunity to hit your target rather than wait for a perfectly centered sight picture, something that in shooting circles is cliched under “see what you need to see” to make your shot.
Agreed with f2s. I suggested front sight focus and proper sight alignment for you (OP) because I assume that you are at the fundamentals of marksmanship stage. I do believe that once you master the basics, you do NOT need to become an expert, you may learn shooting from retention and the principals of point shooting. As f2s makes clear however, the situation will dictate the tactics you choose.
For now, get into a class and get your fundamentals down.
Might have to work on trigger follow through, side to side pressure, using first digit properly, push-pull, and all those good things that help with recoil control and seemingly make the sight go back on target when done correctly.
As others have said though, best have an expert observe you such as some formal training so that they can see what your doing right and what your doing wrong.
That damn drill of Todd’s is maddening isn’t it. lol. Nice to see some video’s. I now officially have 3 youtube subscriptions. 
I would love to try out perhaps a condensed version of the Fleischwolf. Looks a bit tiring for us older, fat errr…heavy set guys. 
When practicing try to increase speed, but do not sacrifice accuracy. The speed will come slowly. Good instruction will be worth it also.
For the OP, just to add to what has been mentioned above, I will also agree that skill, distance and target size all play big roles. Also the more neutral that we can maintain our platform and our grip with a good natural point of aim, the weapon will want to return to the same spot each time, which makes rapid fire much easier no matter the type of sight picture that we are choosing to use.
Understanding cadence comes under shooter skill and can be a big plus, but I will leave it at that as you should work more on fundamentals with confirmation of sight picture and sight alignment with making sure that you have a more correct and neutral grip / shooting platform. If you can have a more natural point of aim so that the sights return to the same place each and every time, you will be able to more efficiently and in a more deliberate manner reconfirm your proper sight picture and sight alignment between each shot. With the sights returning consistently to the same position your speeds will increase with training time. Slow is smooth and smooth becomes fast.
As F2S mentions I use similar techniques while shooting at speed. I will also add a video to illustrate what type of sighting that can be used and the effectiveness of it. In the below video, I am using flash front sight type of aiming. Basically I am watching the front sight and I am not really concerned about the rear sight and its relationship to the front sight. Remember my grip / shooting platform is neutral with a good natural point of aim so at these type of distances I only need to watch the front sight. The target is a B27 paster with an 8 ring that is 12"w x 18" (torso sized), a 9 ring that is 8"w x 12"h (roughly IPSC A zone), a 10 ring that is 4"w x 6"h and an X ring. At this distance and speeds with a repeatable and neutral grip / platform and this type of sighting I get all hits within the 9 ring and a good majority in the 10 ring. However the spread between the 2 shots is generally very small. Your spread between shots will really show the effectiveness of the neutral grip and natural point of aim where the weapon wants to return to the same spot with consistency and recoil management. I watch the front sight and when it hits the bottom of the recoil phase (which the amount of recoil is minimized by the grip / stance) I am pulling trigger. This sight bounce occurs almost as fast as I can even physically pull the trigger.
Oustide of proper mechanics and such, I found that a less clutered sight picture increased my speed. I like plain rear sights matched up with white dots up front. That simple change allowed my eyes to better track my front sight as I focus on my target without the clutter of dots on the rear sight.
My brain would constantly try to align them so I took them out of the equation. Not saying that works for everyone, just sharing my experience.
surf - Damn brother, good shooting. Always brings me back to earth when I see shooting on that level. Same for f2s. One thing though, I do agree that slow and smooth is the way to start, but I don’t believe the slow is smooth and smooth is fast line. You have to push yourself to be faster.
A buddy of mine is on the job with the NYPD out of a Brooklyn precinct. Given the NYPD’s size and budget issues, he chooses to get training on his own dime (not easy if you live in the city). He choose the sig p226 with that horrible 12 lb DAO trigger setup but can drive nails. We attended a training class a while ago and I noticed that he won’t speed up. He has perfect fundamentals, is physically strong, and his mechanics are impeccable but he will not go faster because if he does, he won’t be able to punch that tiny little hole the size of a quarter in his target. The instructor tried to get him to speed up until he is pushed outside of the a zone but he just can not because he is so used to everything being perfect.
Don’t get me wrong, in a gunfight I would want him on my side but you have to be able to push yourself out of your comfort zone when training. When warming up or for pure marksmanship drills, I take my time and and punch pretty holes but for anything practical, I am always trying to get faster. When I go too fast for myself and go outside of my acceptable boundry, I slow it down a bit. This way, I am always pushing myself.
I guess all I am really trying to say is that you have to consciously make an effort to push yourself, being slow and smooth is still being slow. It’s the way to start but you don’t get fast automatically, you have to push yourself. Maybe this is just semantics, sorry for getting off track.
Phase one.
Based on the text in red above, you need to work on your grip and being able to have the sights come back down in the same position after each shot.
The best way to do this is to safely fire 3 or 4 shots at a time into the berm using no target and just concentrate on watching your sights. Are they going straight up and down? If not, where are they going? Are they moving diagonally? Are they making a loop? Are they pausing at the top? Are you fighting recoil so much that they dip out of sight?
Ideally, the sights should be going straight up and down like a sewing machine needle as the gun is firing. The gun fires, the front sight goes up, the front sight comes back down right into the rear notch.
If they are not, somehow you are causing them to move diagonally, loop in circle, pause, etc. You need to figure out what part of your grip, stance or whatever is causing the sights to not be that perfect sewing machine needle.
It may be a weak support hand grip. It may be too much tension in your arms. It may be too much gorilla grip in your strong hand. Experiment and watch those sights. When you get that up and down front sight movement, take note of how you are gripping the gun and do that from now on.
Phase two.
Your eyes must be fast enough to see and recognise that the sight picture is good enough and you should shoot. Believe it or not, you can actually do exercises to make your eyes see more quickly.
Phase three.
Also, your trigger finger must have already reset the trigger and prepped it so it ready to finish the press AS SOON AS YOUR EYES CONFIRM THE SIGHT PICTURE. It needs to be automatic, not “Oh, that looks like a good sight picture. Hey, trigger finger, you can now get on the trigger and start pressing.” It should be, “Sight picture confirmed, Bang, gun goes off.”
None of this has to be practiced at warp speed. If you can, practice the no target berm shooting close to the berm (3yards) just in case a shot goes a little high. Same with resetting and prepping the trigger.
Just make sure that you are shooting with a visual conformation of the sight picture, not trying to time it to a cadence.
So to recap.
- Adjust your grip, stance, whatever so the front sight is going straight up and back down into the rear sight notch.
- Make sure your eyes (and your brain) are staying focused on seeing that front sight back in the notch.
- Learn your trigger, prep it for the next shot and press it off the instant you get a good sight picture.
Gringop
I agree with you, however I think our idea of the concept of “slow is smooth and smooth is fast” is a bit different. Basically slowing things down allows us to become smooth or “economical” in our motions. We trim off the unnecessary movements and work on what gets us from point A to point B the quickest. Once we work out how to become smooth or economical in our movements, which is again accomplished by slowing things down, we can then start to become faster because we are smoother. Funny thing is that sometimes I am very smooth or economical in my movements but I actually feel slower. Check the timer and indeed the smooth run was fast.
Also to add, I am very much outside of the norm within my teaching peer group. I also am a stickler for fundamentals and accuracy but where I tend to depart from the old school hard liners is that I actually design drills that are meant to induce failures or misses within a shooter. Tell that to an old school guy in my field and they might blow a gasket. In reality I like to show a shooter their own personal abilities and limitations and this is only done when you can take them to their own point of failure and beyond. Also taking a shooter out of their own “comfort zone” allows them to progress and is a great way for breaking shooters out of their own personal “plateaus”. At the end of the day most drills are meant to enforce good fundamentals and accuracy, but if we don’t challenge a shooter, the learning curve dramatically slows or comes to a complete stand still. So yes, I see many guys like your friend that you describe, who only wish to perform within their own personal comfort zone because they have been overly hounded by their instructors that they are not allowed to miss. But there needs to be a method to the madness. I do agree that a fast miss is still a miss, but an overly slow hit may not always be the best either. Especially if the guy trying to end your life is faster and more accurate than you are.
So again, I really think we are on the same page.
Surf - Same page brother. And I agree 100% with efficiency of motion and smooth movements. And it still blows my mind when I am pushing myself, getting frustrated, take a minute to breath and get back to fundamentals, repeat the drill smoothly, and shock myself with a faster time even though I feel like my movements were actually slower.
I am reluctant to post this, as I am sure that it will cause more than a few ruffled feathers, but I implore readers to read my entire post and not fixate on the sentence that I am about to type, which is directed at no one in particular.
I hate the term “Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.”
The fastest performance comes from the highest application of efficiency. Smoothness is most certainly a part of that equation, but it is not the only part. Likewise, simply being slow may allow one to seemingly be smooth, but doing the wrong thing slowly will not make it fast. Building a skill with technical correctness and efficiency, performing it repeatedly perfectly, and then accelerating that perfect action is what makes one “fast”.
Once the efficient action is learned, the best way to get fast, is to go fast. You won’t get faster by going slow. At least not once efficient action is known. You have to push yourself to go faster if you want to be faster. At first you may find that you are pushing beyond your normal level of “control”, but continuing to push that envelope will show where your technique is weak (or exactly how much “control” you really need, be it trigger control, acceptable sight deviation, grip, dexterity, etc) and where to devote your training time and effort.
Smooth efficient action accelerated to the edge of control is fast.
Much is often left out in the written word, but I think we are on the same page here in regards to the “slow is smooth and smooth is fast” thinking, no matter our feeling on the catch phrase. In reality I don’t tend to use the word slow, but rather I use the word deliberate. I think the phrase should be more along the lines of “Deliberate becomes efficient and efficiency breeds speed.” There that is my own catch phrase.
In other words slowing things down, or being deliberate in our movements, allows us to work on and become proficient in our base fundamentals. Once we establish a good and repeatable baseline on our fundamental proficiency where it becomes unconscious competence in repeatability, we can really start to increase our speeds and push the limits. Pushing our pace to our limits and beyond and taking ourselves outside of our comfort zone is IMO what keeps us progressing and yes this progression means drills that are designed to take a shooter past their point of failure or having misses. Once that high level of fundamental proficiency is achieved I believe that a shooter should be training right around the ragged edge of speed and accuracy and often going beyond that ragged edge and dialing it back down. This is a good way to push and test ourselves and eventually make those incremental improvements that often become hard to make at high skill levels.
I think we are all on the same page in our meaning. I just don’t like the slow is smooth and smooth is fast line because I believe it creates a harmful mindset such as is demonstrated by my buddy in ny. The problem is that the instructor may know better and only use the line to slow down students who are moving too fast too soon but with many students, catch phrases linger in their minds and take on a very literal meaning The unfortunate thing about this is that I have heard this line repeated by le instructors numerous times and as opposed to recreational instructors, these are the guys training the guys who are going to be putting their ass on the line everyday. not trying to go out of my lane as I am not in le yet but this is based on my personal relationship or experiences with the instructors I am speaking about. I am in no way making a generalization about all le instructors.
Let me be clear, my post was not directed at anyone in this thread as a means to disagree or disprove anything being said.
I only made mention since the phrase was brought up.
I fully believe that most of the experience in this thread is saying the same thing, just with personal tweaks.
Now, I am going to disagree with myself on one aspect of my opinion:
“Slow is smooth, smooth is fast” absolutely applies to enclosure clearing, and is the place you will hear me use the phrase repeatedly and emphatically.
However, this isn’t a CQB thread, so I don’t want to rabbit-hole on it.
Surf/F2S,
Really enjoy reading your posts on training. Regarding the “phrase”, I think many people don’t understand the intent and background explanation is necessary. I believe the point is don’t try to go so fast your fundamentals break down. Same for the draw/presentation.
That’s my take anyway
f2s - Absolutely agree regarding cqb. If guys are going lightning speed during training (especially 1), their stick is gonna open up when their all amped up when doing it outside of training and that’s a surefire way to get guys killed.
Redhat - You understand the meaning behind the saying, I get it, f2s gets it, surf gets it, but my point is that the trainee can easily take it too literally and that reinforces a bad mindset. It’s much easier to avoid a flawed saying than to over-explain it everytime. My experience is that the more words used, the more confusing things can get for a student. If it isn’t clear, concise, and demonstrable, it is usually best left unsaid (possible exceptions for advanced students but that is not who we are talking about).
Edit to add last three sentences.