I would be interested in hear from LEOs on this subject, especially given the current environment.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/how-to-help-a-cop-during-a-life-threatening-struggle
The first thing I would caution against if you are a CCW holder is getting tied up in a wrestling match. If you get involved there are at least two guns in the scrum AND NO ONE IS WATCHING THEM. Read over the FBI LEOKA summaries of police deaths for a couple of years. You will find one or two where there were two officers involved in a struggle and the bad guy accessed one of their weapons, resulting in one, or two dead officers.
Most folks who fight the police do not begin the fight with a clear cut plan, their focus is on the immediate - get away. An officer should never assume that a suspect is struggling simply to put on a show for bystanders before submitting. That may be true in some cases, but I do not belief it is the norm. People who attack police officers are either cold calculating criminals, or, more than likely, irrational due to panic, fear, anger. Why do folks being arrested for minor crimes such as shoplifting shot officers? They are irrational at the moment. Given a time out, and a couple moments to think about it, most would probably not assault the officer - unfortunately life isn’t like that. Don’t assume that anyone who attacks an officer has anything in mind but escape and be aware that if they obtain a weapon they will likely use it.
Unless there is a need for immediate action - a struggle over the officer’s weapon for example, or the subject in the mount position over an apparently disabled officer, your first priority should be making sure that other officers know of the situation - don’t assume the officer was able to call in that he was being assaulted. He may have called out the traffic stop, but not been able to call in that he was in a fight. When an officer checks out on a call there is generally a couple minutes lapse before dispatch checks him. Have someone call it in on a phone, tell them to describe you as being on scene and assisting the officer - be prepared for this to be misunderstood, keep your weapon holstered if at all possible. A call to 911 of an officer needing assistance will amp the dispatcher up unless they have experienced the situation. If the officer’s unit is unlocked, it would be quicker in most cases to use the unit’s radio - identify yourself, give your location, and describe what’s going on, tell them what you are wearing and that you are assisting. Summon someone, if there is anyone, to talk on the radio.
Remember this is only if the officer doesn’t need immediate assistance to save his or her life. If there is a struggle for the officer’s gun and you decide deadly force is warranted, closer is better, folks struggling can quickly change positions, a close-in shot minimizes the risk to the officer. If possible, loudly and clearly announce ‘RELEASE THE OFFICER’S WEAPON OR I WILL SHOOT’ this is best for you if bystander’s hear it and it may jar the assailant back to coherent thought.
If you need to shoot, angle your shot so it won’t endanger the officer. Over penetration is not normally an issue with modern self-defense ammunition, but consider the path of the bullet just to be sure. Your shot should be to an immediately incapacitating area, high in the CNS. If you shoot I would suggest that once the threat is stopped, you immediately holster.
If you don’t need to use lethal force immediately, be prepared for that eventuality, very loudly, STOP RESISTING, OTHER OFFICERS ARE ON THE WAY, GET OFF, once again better for you if bystanders hear this, and it may get the assailant to reconsider. If no immediate compliance figure your best course of action. Don’t wrestle. I believe kicking or stomping may be best for most folks, but that is a personal decision best made on reflection of your abilities.
One of my friends was attacked by a guy on a traffic stop on a busy throughway. They were rolling on the grassy area off the shoulder and the bad guy was on top, suddenly a boot appeared, attached to the leg of a truck driver, kicking the guy in the head. Fight over. ‘Looked like you needed help.’ Feet work.
Of course it goes without saying obey all commands of responding officers, and it is best if 1) you don’t have a gun in your hand; and 2) your attempts to render aid to the officer you’ve just saved do not look like you are assaulting him.
26 Inf made some good points above. I would add make sure you attempt to communicate your intent to help loudly and clearly to the officer before you join the fray, if possible. Simple, loud, and clear is best, as there is a lot going on for the officer. This will prevent the officer from thinking you are a friend/relative of whoever they are fighting coming to dogpile onto them, and perhaps escalating force against one or both of you. It will also make clear your intentions on any subsequent video review of the event.
Bear in mind that like 26 said, some of these people are in full panic mode without a plan. Others are hard core criminals, likely armed and very dangerous. You usually do not know the level of risk involved until events are over.
If the officer warns you away or back, I would heed that unless it absolutely looks like tragedy is about to occur and you can successfully intervene. They know more about the situation than you are likely to happening across it late. Almost all of us appreciate the help, and the desire to assist despite the danger, but this is a risk voluntarily assumed. I do not want to see a citizen seriously injured or worse while attempting to assist me.
I probably wouldn’t get involved unless the cop asked me to. He doesn’t know me, and neither does the backup that might pull up at any minute and confuse me with the bad guy. Now if the cop’s on the ground screaming for help, then you gotta do what you gotta do, but I would really caution someone against trying to be a hero.
great info to consider. I sure hope I don’t have to assist anyone but I would
I didn’t read all of the above.
If, while out and about, I saw a struggling LEO, I’d help him or her.
That is not the point.
There is some very good information here. Thanks to all sharing their thoughts/opinions. Obviously each situation will dictate the response, but having at least thought about worst case scenario puts people in a better position than if they had never thought about it.
I’m not trying to single you out Hans, and its nothing personal but I get tired of hearing the “don’t be a hero” nonsense. I’ve assisted paramedics, volunteer firefighters, and one police officer who was wrestling with a shit head on the side of the road and not once did being a “hero” cross my mind. What did cross my mind however, was doing what I thought was right, and helping people who were in need. To the topic at hand, first, I asked the police officer if he wanted me to help, which he did. Every situation is different but in this case he didn’t appear to be in immediate life threatening danger but was on his back. I helped out only until the officer could regain control. He didn’t want me to be any more involved than I had to be and I’m fine with that.
I want to say thanks to 26 Inf and PD Sgt for their comments here. As a former FF/Paramedic, there is no question in my mind that I would stop and do my best to assist an officer who was having some trouble, and this is great info to have. The point about notifying dispatch is well taken - it’s always good to make sure the cavalry is on its way.
I think it would be prudent to have a clear idea of who is in the right and who is in the wrong before taking sides in any struggle lest one aid the aggressor.
Police officers everywhere thank you for that vote of confidence.
Why would I want to assist anyone as they commit assault and battery 3rd degree?
In any profession we can find people who have done wrong or acted outside the law. Police officers are no different. That link however has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If you hate cops just say so. It’s a free country.
ETA: What is your profession Mr. B1?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I work in construction, how about you?
While we can find “people who have done wrong or acted outside the law” in any profession, I can’t recall ever seeing any discussions on immediately assisting a member of any other profession involved in a fight(or commission of a crime) simply because of their employment.
I dislike anyone who engages in committing a wrong against another as well as those who aid and abet them.
Why is it cop hate to dislike an LEO who plead guilty to assault and battery 3rd degree exactly?
And it is pertinent to the discussion because Buffalo Wild Wings got included in the Federal lawsuit filed by the victim because the restaurant did nothing to assist her. While that did not pan out as near as I can tell, that could very well have been a different story had they actively assisted the deputy(who continued to claim he was doing his job even after pleading guilty). If assisting the deputy in committing his crime didn’t have an affect on the conscience the legal fees would likely have a negative effect on the finances.
That scenario could have been an even bigger deal had they assisted and he managed to remove her from the premises prior to the Columbia police(who were siding with the deputy prior to the other patrons producing video to back up their account of the incident) arriving since it was rather doubtful the deputy was concerned about her drinking habits.
[QUOTE=JasonB1;2193102]I work in construction, how about you?
While we can find “people who have done wrong or acted outside the law” in any profession, I can’t recall ever seeing any discussions on immediately assisting a member of any other profession involved in a fight(or commission of a crime) simply because of their employment.QUOTE]
Well, we should have such discussions - if anyone is getting beat down to the point they are in danger of serious physical harm, a good citizen does something.
In terms of the police officer thing, there is usually a weapon present, huh? And in most of the fights the OP was talking about, the goal of the assailant often seems to be gaining control of the officer’s weapon.
I don’t recall anyone wanting to hold the person down while the officer beats the dog poop out of the person.
Apparently you dislike police in general, as someone mentioned, there are bad apples in every profession, even construction. The link you posted in no way relates to the OP’s question, or most of the comments in the thread.
I hope if you are ever getting your ass kicked to the point you are in danger of serious physical harm, the officer, or fellow citizens who are on scene don’t let the asswhipping continue until they are absolutely sure you don’t deserve it.
And to answer this: Why is it cop hate to dislike an LEO who plead guilty to assault and battery 3rd degree exactly? I’d have to say it isn’t, but you seemed to be lumping all LEO’s into the same boat.
I wasn’t the one who said “Police officers everywhere”, that was you.
I never said there were not bad apples in other professions. Can you tell of us any occupational groups where the assumption of innocence in any altercation goes to a member of that group and tends to stick sans video? I can think of only one.
Can you tell us of any occupations where the majority of the members of that occupational group will assist a fellow member in an altercation simply due to being a colleague without knowing the details or (worse) ignoring negative details? I can only think of a few.
Don’t recall if If the deputy was armed or not, but if did not want a weapon present while he was committing assault and battery then he should have not had it with him. And I am quite sure he would have appreciated it had the bar patrons(apparently at least some of which were her colleagues) assisted him in subduing her.
I’m going to go with my gut feeling and deep seated belief that the overwhelming majority of law enforcement officers are good people charged with heavy responsibilities and are worthy of my support and respect. I could not stand by with my thumb up my ass and do nothing just because the officer in danger might be one of the bad apples.
I am sure the deputy and others like him would appreciate your vote of confidence.
Good one! 