How do you make your gun/accessory/gear choices?

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

I don’t think it’s any secret that I am a huge proponent of starting off with the best quality, and most basic configuration, carbine you can and spending money on magazines, ammo, and training, as evidenced by threads like Go shoot the gun!. Further, I assume like goals as covered in this thread.

So within that framework, and understanding that I have that bias, I wonder how others make their gun, accessory, and gear choices, and how they wrap those choices into implementation.

Some, myself included, will research the hell out of a product prior to purchase. Any product. TV, car, gun, shoes, whatever. The internet is both a boon, in that it has a lot of information easily available, and a burden, in that this information can be overwhelming. Like most of you, I am sure, I tend to enter a store or dealership knowing more about the product than the guy selling it.

But how do you apply that research, and at what phase of the process? For example, have you ever bought a Raptor when you needed a King Ranch? and how did you get there, and how did you resolve it?

I approach firearms a little differently, in part because of my intended application. Now that I am pretty well aquainted with the platform and how I want to use it, it’s easy to have “test bed” carbines that get used on the range and in classes and “critical use” carbines that frankly usually live in the safe. Accessories that work well in the test-bed phase may make their way to the critical use carbines. This is what works for me, now, in part because I know what works for me and where I’m going.

But when starting out, I have to admit, I wish I had just bought a basic AR carbine and gone and shot the gun. I made the mistake early on of falling victim to my own ego and the “I’m me, I’m different, I know what I like” mentality. I researched the hell out of the best guns, parts, and pieces and built myself a gun that was really impressive by the standards of the day and got many kudos on the forum where I posted pictures of it. In retrospect and in truth this was really my only goal so I patted myself on the back. But also, in truth, the gun sucked on the range for my needs. It took many, many years for me to undo what I had done both on the gun and in my own mind, and it took me spending a year with a basic AK with a light, RDS, and sling to really understand how badly I had fucked up, and all the time and money I had wasted going about things that way.

So I’m curious. To those that have been doing the AR thing for awhile, how did you make your initial and early choices? How does that compare with how you do things now? and to those just starting out, how are you arriving at your configuraions and accessories with zero, or limited, trigger time on the platform? and, other than “it’s my money I’ll do what I want with it” how are you justifying to yourself the purchase of more than just the basic gun?

Bear in mind the attitude from the first two links I posted above. If your justification or rationale includes “I like it, it looks cool” there is NOTHING wrong with that, but it’s not the basis for a decision making process that I’m interested in for the purposes of this thread.

2

rob,
I’m really curious as to what whiz-bang accessories you’re referring to and how they made your weapon suck on the range for your needs. I can understand someone new to the system not needing an aftermarket trigger…

Are you referring to things that you feel a new shooter doesn’t need, or is it simply not spending $300+ on a new rail, or magpul furniture, and instead using that money on ammo and training?

In my case, an RDS and light were the only accessories I put on my AR, because I was familiar with using those in basic drills & MOUT techniques I ran in the Marine Corps. Then I decided to change the grip out to an MOE because I didn’t like the feel of the A2.

3

It was a combination of a lot of things, but regardless of the specifics of the products they all shared one thing in common, and that was that the evaluation process for choosing them was based wholly in word-of-mouth and internet reviews and as it turned out most were completely superfluous. It was not a quality issue as all were considered top of the line of the day, and many still are today, if not the product itself then the manufacturer it came from.

In short, I thought I knew what I wanted/needed but couldn’t have been more wrong, and in hindsight would have been better off, both in terms of time and money, starting with a ligther, less expensive, simpler, and more basic carbine and modifying as I found it lacking based on actual use.

4

Thanks for clarifying.

5

I started with the basic AR setup. Fixed A2, M4 upper, carry handle…ect. No bells or whistles. Shot it for a while, then moved to a flat-top with flip up sights and 1-3x scope (still m4 config.)

Now i’m moving to a top tier upper that i can rig out how i want it…mainly cause i can afford it now that i’m out of college.

I just look at what i want(or think i want), quality, cost, and weigh all three together. I am still fairly new to the ar scene (owned one for 3yrs), but i’m fairly young anyway.

I try to keep everything simple, including my guns.

6

I don’t have enough money to “experiment”, so I choose my gear to be as close to proven military quality as possible, with rare exceptions.

I do quite a bit of research prior to purchase, and I’m not afraid to admit I don’t know everything and rely on others’ advice.

The internet and this forum have saved me thousands of dollars. Just before joining this forum, I was an inch from ordering a S&W M&P M4, until I read about cracked lowers and saw that it was a little to “right of chart” for me.

Right now I am struggling with the “mid vs. carbine” gas system. I see the advantages of the mid length system, but my tendency to keep it as close to what’s issued to the troops as possible is eating at me. I’m tempted to make my next carbine a legal 14.5" barrel with pinned flash hider.

7

When I go to the range - I ask myself a few questions: (After doing a drill/something and seeing my deficiency.)

What will make me more accurate?
What will make me faster?
What will help me gain range, and at what expense?
What will help me be seamless in transition (In other words - will it slow me down, or bar me?)?
What will help me adapt?
Will said equipment become a crutch for less skill? (The reason I didn’t by the Magpul BAD lever.)

One those questions have been answered and I have found a piece of equipment I need/want I then ask:

How proven is it, who uses it?
Does it have a real world application?
Does it have more than one application?
Is it going to do anything for me that I can’t do on my own?
How much does it weigh?

and finally?

Can this item potentially save my life?

This is my standard method of choosing items now. I find a problem and I bridge the gap. This is why I no longer use RDS, only variable or magnified optics.

It didn’t always be this way.

8

I started out about 10 years ago, with a 20" bushmaster,standard A2 stock, stock handguards, I shot it off and on, not really getting serious with it, basically plinking, etc, It was’nt until I stumbled on to this site did things start to change…It turned out that I found out that G&R tactical was about 20 minutes from my house, That’s when things really started to change…for the first time here was a store that had all these AR-15 assessories that I’d only seen in catalogs, in stock,I could pick up and look at, and Grant would take time to explain how they worked and why you would want them. I had Grant evaluate my bushmaster, He showed me what was right and what was wrong with it. He restaked the carrier key. It was at that point, I decided I wanted something better. That’s about the time I joined this site, and started reading, doing some research, asking questions. When I did’nt understand something I’d drive out to G&R and ask Grant, He’d always take time to explain. My first M4 type rifle was a Charled Daly…I still have it, I made a few changes to it, Troy rear, troy rail, Magpul stock, triggerguard…and a LMT BCG, Vickers sling, and a Comp3 aimpoint. last spring, I sold a PTR91 I had, and took the money and had Grant build me a rifle. This time around using mostly DD parts, 16" DD pencil bbl, fixed front, DD upper, BCG, lower, G&R LPK, magpul stock,triggerguard, buis, Blem’ed Ras rail. Vickers sling, aimpoint, swapped from the Daly rifle. This was a much better setup. Shortly after buying this I found out Grant was going to have defensive carbine and pistol classes at the club I’m a member of… Wow! I attended all the carbine classes and only missed one pistol class. The carbine classes really helped me, not only that, I was able to evaluate my rifle by using it, doing drills, and basically found that’s it’s pretty much good to go. Still, some changes needed to be made. The only other changes made were, QD receiver plate installed, QD point on rail installed, BCM charging handle installed,DD fixed rear sight installed, and a SF X-300, picked up in a trade, This rifle set up like this, is, simple, basic, which is right up my alley, If anything, I’d like to thank Grant for taking time to answer my questions, opening my eyes, and for straighting me out…otherwise, I’d be another idiot out shooting dirt clods with my Bushmaster…

9

Great thread Rob!

Its really interesting how I ended up purchasing my carbine, and I ended up there having only ever shot 1 .223 gun in my entire life.

I have a very extensive background in high risk sports, and grew up in an environment that was deadly 9 months out of the year. I was trained in most outdoor sports I participate in by the Captain of Search and Rescue for Sweetwater County WY. I lived in a state where idiots get themselves killed annually by not having the right equipment. The term “as good as” has always been considered a warning, or potential death sentence.

Therefore when I buy gear I buy it with the ability of that product to complete the intended use safely and effectively and to the best current standards the technology allows for. Second unfortunately for me is price, I do have to consider price at this point in my life, so I either hold off on buying anything until I save up, or I do more research until I find my intended product. I’ve found with lots of outdoor gear (Mountain Hardware for example), that the top top tier brands do deserve to be on top, but there is usually one brand right below them that successfully fills my first requirement, but may not have all the bells and whistles of most expensive option. Unfortunately one thing that is a major short coming of mine is that I also like to physically hold, and see products I buy before I drop tons of money on them, therefore I tend to shop local.

When it came to my AR I wanted a SHTF gun and I didn’t know what, where or how to go about it. I grew up shooting, I loved shooting, but I felt that having a carbine and knowing how to use it was a good investment. I sat down and weighed the benefits of each assault rifle, and I went with the M4 for several reasons I will skim over here.

After that I went about researching the brands, and the prices using my requirements. I got bogged down in bullshit I found online, but started with just reading everything I could about the history and function of the weapon. I then spent one day every two weeks touring local gun shops and looking for brands I had found in my research. I probably picked up and held over 25 various models of AR in this time period. 90% of them were from brands like DPMS, Oly, Remington, Rock River. 90% of the time the gun store clerk said the dreaded words “As good as”. I eventually stumbled onto this site about a month before I had saved up enough for a DPMS and then I finally made my choice with info I found on this forum, and saved myself a headache. One thing of note is I never stumbled onto TOS in my google searches, and I only ever searched technical data on the m4…:wink:

Then in regards to add ons, I thought only about what I needed out of the gun, and how to get there using the same requirements above. I settled on a pretty KISS concept, that only addresses things I need out of the carbine. My gun looks pretty boring on the pictures thread with its Red Dot, BUIS, and MOE foregrip. But I trust it for its intended purpose, and it’s only the end use that needs work at this point. That is accomplished by training 2-4 times a month, of which I go out one on one with a good friend and Iraq vet, who helps me train. It’s pretty nice to have a buddy that spent the first year after coming home training West Point Cadets on the use of the m4 in an urban environment…:wink:

10

I firmly believe in acquiring the right tool for the job. Evaluate your need/application and make a decision based off of what best suits that need. I find, too often, people are not honest and objective when choosing guns and gear, but are instead encapsulated by marketing and hype that is ever-prevalent in the firearms industry.

In my younger days, I have purchased firearms/gear/accessories because they were the newest, coolest thing in the market at that particular time. What I have learned from my experiences though is to never buy anything that is new on the market. I, for one, hate to be the guinea pig for new products as they go through their product cycle and manufacturers upgrade flaws in their design. Not to mention, I have seen several recalls for new firearms.

I have also made the mistake of buying firearms and gear based purely off word-of-mouth recommendations. This is not as much of an issue if you get good advice from a trusted source: however, I find that even if a product may be a legitimately good product, it may not fit my specific needs/applications. I have learned that individual preferences differ as it comes to gear selection and guns. Bottom line, is the gear that I am purchasing relevant to what I am doing? That goes along with the advice I normally give to new competition shooters. I tell them to go and shoot one or two matches with the most basic gear with which they can get by. Then evaluate their need for gear based on their match experience and based off of current gear choices used by other competitors.

Nowadays, I have sold off quite a bit of my safe queens and have really diminished the amount of guns that I do not shoot or use. Mentality wise, I have switched from more of a collector to an end user. To this end, my needs have really driven all of my firearms-related purchases. I like to research anything I am going to buy, which usually means perusing internet reviews and soliciting opinions from trusted sources. With that being said, the internet can have a large volume of disinformation, so I place lot of value on user feedback. This is one of the reasons why I appreciate the real-world knowledge from this forum. This does not always prevent me from purchasing an item that just may not work out, but I have found that nothing really substitutes for trying the product out. Sometimes an idea looks good on paper but does not meet expectations when you step on the range. I just chalk those up as lessons learned.

11

Gear selection is a long process (or should be). For me, it involves the following:

  1. Seeing a review online.
  2. Talking to instructor friends about their opinion on the item.
  3. Contacting the manufacturer and asking them a bunch of questions.
  4. Buying said item and examining it for weeks.
  5. Installing item on my personal gun and taking it to the range for drills.
  6. Taking said item to an advanced shooting school.
  7. Attempt to break item (drop test, running into walls, etc).
  8. Read more reviews online and post my experience.
  9. Figure out if the item truly made a difference over what I am already running.
  10. How much weight is this item compared to what I am already using.

One thing I have noticed is that as time has gone by (and I have grown in my training knowledge) more and more things are coming off my weapon. A couple years ago, you would have found a long quad rail, vertical grip, single point sling, UBR stock, SS barrel, US Optics SN4 and a 9 volt weaponlight.

Now you find me using a pencil barrel (chrome lined), TRX Extreme rail, Micro Aimpoint, BFG Vickers 2 point sling, X300 light, and a SOPMOD stock.

Less is more.

C4

12

Mine was pretty simple.

Came to M4C.net, read a lot of the discussions and absorbed what I could. Then, asked questions both in a public manner as well as in PM’s with the SME and IP’s on the board.

I am proud to say not once was I shuttled off or told to F’off. The gentlemen I questioned all seemed happy to share their knowledge of the platform to a person who wanted to learn a bit.

13

Rob,
This made me laugh. I think most people go through this phase at one time or another. I did when I was younger, then I pulled my head out of my ass and started looking at things practically. It’s hard to fight off the ego bug sometimes.

I used to think that I need … number of ARs with all top of the line (most expensive) gear and then I would be happy. Nope, I always wanted more and cooler stuff. I felt like a mental patient addicted to hearing people compliment my guns and I realized I could have all the cool guns in the world but it wouldn’t make me happy, or a better shooter. Then I started training a lot and almost all of my views have changed.
It is a funny transformation though… like someone just poors a bucket of cold water on you.

This is pretty much my reasoning now.

First - Do I NEED it?
Second - Is it practical for MY needs?
Third - I look at function (how well does it work for MY needs)
Last - Do I really NEED it?

Once I decide what I need in general then I begin process of elimination. ie: comfort, price, weight, durability, etc.

IE: My home defense AR is a LMT 14.5", KAC rail, Scout M600, and LMT fixed BUIS…

All I need is fixed sights and a good light. Plus my HD gun is very light weight without all of the other accessories.

14

After the initial fuck up of purchasing a Bushmaster flat top carbine and learning that such a purchase was a fuck up, I went about unfucking the rifle as much as I could.

I upgraded the extractor, staked the gas key, castle nut, put in an H-buffer and went out to shoot it.

After a while I realised that I was unable to properly position my body [squared up] because the AWB compliant pinned M4 stock and RE were simply too long. I wanted to keep it light and simple to I opted for a Magpul MOE stock. Installed it, adjusted it to my desired LOP and pinned it in place and went back to shooting it.

After some time had passed in that configuration I saw that I would like a RDS instead of the irons. I read all the threads I could find on M4C to find the RDS/mount that was right for me. I knew I would never have an NVG device on the gun, so there was no need to pay extra for a sight that would be compatable. I decided on an Aimpoint and even thought I wanted an H1 at the time the jury was still out [I think] on weather they would stand up as well as their other models, I did not want to be the experiment so I went with a model having a longer track record. Once again I had to un-fuck the BM by installing a taller front sight post in order to line up with a Mil Spec BUIS.

Along the way I had made some mistakes like UTG rails and such, but mostly I would like to think that I go out and shoot the gun until I find something is lacking and then I look to those who have more experience than myself, like you guys, for advice on how to remidy the shortcoming. So far, I have been very pleased with your assistance.

15

I have been shooting AR15s for about 8 or so years, since I turned 18. In 06 when I got out of the Army I started to take a real hard look at my rifle, which was a Bushamster. I never noticed its shortcomming before because it was just a toy because I had the real thing.

So I decided to go to Colt and traded for a A2 Hbar. That turned out not to be what I was looking for and sold it to buy my friends Colt 6520.

That was a sweet rifle… But after a while the A2 upper was not wanted. I thought about switching it to an A3/4 upper but it was a damn ban era big front takedown pin. Plus the lightweight barrel made high volume distance shooting hard because it would string up and left when the barrel warmed up.

I wanted a do it all carbine that had a flat top but still had good irons. I ended up with a Noveske N4 light middy. I have since added a Troy drop in rail and the necessities like a sling and light. I recently added a Magpul shorty grip out front to help with their split front grip that I have switched to and added rail covers to make it more comfortable to hold. Also have a YHM can on the way.

Im still trying to decide on an optic but that will be it.

So I guess Im a trial and error type guy. Im trying to change that because it takes a long time and is expensive.

Once I get another carbine (next one is a CQB weapon) I might turn the Noveske into a Recce style with a free float rail and a scope.

16

I’ve been a gun guy for decades with a lot of shooting experience with a variety of weapons. But I’m just a civilian, not LE or military, and my firearms needs are around home defense, vermin control on my property, and pleasure shooting. I typically always approach any buying decision by doing a considerable amount of research and consideration. I try to have my first choice be as good as it can be. And as a result, I rarely have buyer’s remorse.

When I decided to get an AR I first spent time with a friend of mine who is in the Natl. Guard Security who has a lot of training with the weapon. I then read a lot about ARs in books and on forums. Several visits to gunshops followed where I handled a wide variety of ARs. Around that same time I posted a thread here asking for suggestions.

It’s important to note that I am not in the military, nor LE, nor likely to have to use the AR in heavy/very hard use, combat situations. For me, this is simply another home defense firearm option, a gun for training with, and pleasure shooting.

As I learned more about the various gas system lengths, hand guards, sighting options, barrel lengths, and stock choices I spent a lot of time thinking about how I would use the gun and where. For me it wasn’t a question of trying to find the lowest cost AR, it was about buying quality and keeping it simple. Years of 1911 use taught me that all the possible bells and whistles are not necessarily needed nor desired.

I knew from holding various AR models that I wanted a good cheek weld (SOPMOD felt great to me) and being tall with longish arms, I knew I needed some length in the set-up to fit comfortably. A longer forearm felt a lot better to me than a short one. And, the longer hand guard allows ifor a longer sight radius as well.

I like to keep things simple, so I knew I didn’t want rails all over the forearm with devices hanging everywhere, just a top rail and the ability to add another piece of rail when and if I decided I needed it. For this, the VTAC 11" forearm felt good and was light weight and didn’t have excessive rail area… and I could swap out the 11" version for the 13" version, if I decided I wanted even more out front real estate. But not wanting excessive weight, I decided the 11" was a good length to start with. It was also much less costly than the quad rail options. The VTAC allows a longer sighting radius than a carbine system with FSB, which was an added plus in my view. So for me, the 11" VTAC was an ideal choice. I also wanted to start with just iron sights to keep it simple.

After weeks of reading, thinking, studying, handling various models in gunshops, and considering the options that people had recommended, I finally reached a point where I was very comfortable making a decision for my first (and I knew there would be others) AR. I decided to stick with good quality and keep it simple. Iron sights would be fine for a while until I could come to a well-educated decision on anything optical.

Rob, you yourself pointed me to what I ultimately landed on, a BCM 16" LW middy. I decided on the flat-top with lo-pro middy gas system because it affords a variety of easy change options for hand guard choices and by most accounts is an appropriate length gas system for a 16" barrel… and it allows a full free floated barrel. I also liked the possibility that a mid length gas system might be a little easier on the gun and possibly a tad less recoil than a carbine system. I opted for the VTAC handguard for the reasons I mentioned above (fit, simplicity, not too costly, long sighting radius). And Troy folding iron sights because I could easily move them to another upper, if I desired, and they afforded great versatility for future optics choices. I didn’t want a permanent FSB because I wanted more easy versatility for possible future changes. I selected the ACS stock because the cheek weld felt right to me. And the Hogue grip because it felt good to me as well. I also realized that these items are quick and easy to switch around, if need be, so I didn’t agonize over those decisions too much. I got a second BCM upper and an LMT lower with SOPMOD and Ergo grip as well.

I don’t have extensive trigger time with the gun, but I’ve been shooting it every few days for a couple of weeks and so far, anyway, I’m really happy with the choices. Was it perfect? Doubtful, as NO choice is THE perfect choice. But it’s a versatile, well-made AR that I think will serve me well in training and in HD. And no doubt, there will be more ARs in my future, so I can adjust and tweak along the way to meet my needs.

I also added a BCM middy 14.5 with welded BC1.5, which I have enjoyed shooting as well. Fortunately, I am able to afford to have several ARs to explore and learn with. And I’ve learned with guns that if you buy top quality to begin with, at a good price, it’s rarely difficult to get most of (sometimes all of, or better!) one’s money back out of a firearm if you decide to sell or change up your kit.

This forum (along with books, DVDs, other forums, etc.) has been a wonderful resource to me for getting educated on many aspects of the AR and no doubt will continue to serve that role. Before choosing any other gear/accessories, I will of course spend time researching them here and elsewhere before making a choice.

17

I haven’t owned an AR for very long–about 18 months–but I have learned a lot in that time, in large part due to the knowledge threads on M4Carbine. A big thing the world of ARs has changed is my views on ergonomics with guns. I had only ever shot a few rifles and pistols and did rather well with them, and figured people who couldn’t do well with them were just bad shots. Since playing with different configurations–especially with grips and stocks–on the same gun, I have noted how much of a difference a grip or stock that fits you better can improve or hinder my shooting. This seems painfully obvious now, but before I just thought a gun is a gun and while some fit better than others it doesn’t matter.

When I bought my first AR-15 I didn’t know much about them. I tried doing some research, but it’s difficult to tell who’s an expert, who’s justifying their crappy purchase, and who works for the company that built the gun they’re reviewing on the Internet. I also find gun magazines wholly unhelpful as 100% of products they review come across as perfect in every way.

I still have my first AR-15, a Stag. For the past 3 months or so I have been using it primarily as a test bed for different grips, slings, etc. This has allowed me to make much better decisions on ergonomics related gear–it’s just been a bit expensive. I’ve also recently had the epiphany that doing drills really sucks with a heavy gun and recently built a somewhat lightweight gun which has had me practicing more.

The main thing, though, has been getting into the mindset that guns are tools first and foremost. If it isn’t going to make me or my gun faster, more accurate, more reliable, or more suitable to the intended environment then I’ll pass!

18

Great topic for a thread.

I’ve been an AR shooter for 3 years now and have taken a route similar to many here.

Like Rob, I research the heck out of any purchase. This was probably what kept me from getting a tier-2 gun as my first AR. My first gun was a “recon” style franken-gun with all the top of the line stuff – Billet Upper and Lower, Noveske MedCon barrel, Timney 2.5lb trigger, 1-4x optic, 12” Larue rail, etc. Man, it looked good in the pictures.

But then I shot it…It was 11+lbs with a loaded mag. It was muzzle heavy. And it was not what I needed for a HD rifle.

So I am now back to the basics both for the gun and any other support equipment I carry.

Currently, my criteria for any piece of gear is that it must:

Be Functional within the context of what I need for my HD/SHTF purposes. I try to ensure that “the mission drives the gear.” so I have a sling, a light and a red dot optic. After that there is not much else I need.

OR

Add significant enhanced capability or ease of use while running the gun

AND

Be Reliable – I try to look for gear that has proven itself to be rugged over time. I use AARs and other feedback from this forum and others to make those evaluations. If something comes along and proves to be more reliable for the core functions I need it to, I’ll give it try.

Then 3 other criteria are applied in no specific order

  1. Weight – All things being equal, can I solve this problem with a lighter piece of gear?
  2. Cost – It the gear priced reasonably for what it is? Is it a good value? Would I be better off spending this money on ammo/training? Can I solve this problem for less money?
  3. Overall integration on the weapon – Does the gear affect weapon balance or maneuverability?

Applying that criteria has led me to

A BCM carbine with
a MOE Handguard instead of rails
a VCAS sling
An Aimpoint Micro T-1 in a Larue Mount (Would get a H-1 if buying again)
and a Surefire G2 light in a VTAC mount

The non-essential “extras” I have on my gun are an ambi safety selector and a BAD Lever. I think the ambi safety adds to ease in running the gun as I like to use my index finger to put the gun on safe. The jury is out for me on the BAD lever.

19

I drag my weapons through the Brownells catalog with a crap magnet.

20

This is how I found M4C.com and why I became a member. I really don’t buy into the hype from places like TOS or the gun rags. I firmly belive in the KISS principle. With that said when people like Larry Vickers speak I shut up and take note. I will never have the experiance of someone like him so I can save myself a lot of time, money, and frustration in learning from subject matter experts like him on everything from technique to product selection.

Like many other guy’s here money is tight, the economy has been in the port-a-shitter for a while now so I have to make my money go further. So I can’t waist my money on gucci gear or the latest greatest flavor of the month. Cost is a big part of product selection to me. It is a balancing act between cost and quality. I will always choose quality (reliability) over cheap so I scour the internet for items on sale and that’s when I buy usually.