How do you handle FTF firearms sales?

[John_Wayne777]

Smart people would listen to DBrowne on this one.

[d90king]

I make a copy of DL and I prefer the buyer to also have a valid LTCF. Thats it… It satisfies my desire to make sure that I am selling to an instate resident and someone who has been vetted by a background check in the past.

I do this because I want to, not because I have to. All handguns are transferred through a FFL. Pa does not allow FTF transfers on handguns.

[bobvila]

In this litigious time I can not believe people would just hand off a gun with no paper work. I call internet ego and Estanding up for their rights, or they are just stupid.

[Sudden]

I went through the FFL dealer. If I sold to a nut at least I tried not to. Also on a trade I don’t want to buy a stolen gun or one that was used in a crime.

[mkbar80]

I’m less concerned about criminal issues. I’m more concerned about a civil suit if, God forbid, a weapon I sold were to be used in a violent crime causing death. I have no idea if it would make any difference, but I feel that I’d have a much better chance defending myself from a civil suit if I can document that the buyer provided me with a state ID and a LTCH showing me he is not prohibited from owning a firearm.

Maybe these steps still wouldn’t give me much protection from a civil suit, but I feel better having taken the steps in my OP. It’s interesting to find out how some of the senior members view these transactions.

[theJanitor]

@Business_Casual

Since when do we have gun registration in Georgia, let alone the United States?

B_C

In Hawaii, everything is registered. Even firearms that were owned prior to the registration laws had to be submitted for registration. In that light, there are specific procedures that must be followed for FTF transactions.

[Naxet1959]

NO STINKING WAY am I giving my social security number to anyone, let alone just because I might have bought a gun from you. That would be quite the scam these days… the gift that keeps on giving.

[ghostman1960]

@Quiet-Matt

With the few FTF transactions I have sold, I come with 2 copies stating both of our names, date, buyers address, SSN and DOB, serial number and manufacture info of firearm, and description of transaction. We sign both copies and each keep one. I keep them in the safe for whatever reason might come up in the future. Overkill, maybe, just covering my tail.

This. And I am heavily armed too! lol

[99HMC4]

@dbrowne1

I knew somebody would chime in and say something like this.

You don’t do much trial work, do you? There isn’t much better evidence of when and how a transaction took place than a contemporaneous writing memorializing it and signed by the parties. It is absolutely admissible (assuming there is a person, i.e., you to identify and authenticate it) as evidence, will carry a great deal of weight, and if nothing else it can be used to refresh your recollection.

On a less technical and more practical note, which scenario do you think is going to cause you less grief when somebody comes knocking on your door about a gun you sold 8 years ago:

1. “Oh yes. I vaguely remember that. I have a form that I always use and that we signed with the date and some information on it, let me go grab that. … Ok, here is the date and the name and town of the person I sold it to.”

OR

2. “Uhh… yeah… I sold that to some dude a few years ago. No, I don’t remember his name. No, couldn’t tell you exactly when. Uh… yeah, sorry, I don’t remember that either…”

You don’t seem to have a grasp of how this actually works.

First of all, any time a FFL goes out of business, all of his records go to the ATF. I’m sure you know that, being a FFL yourself. If he’s still in business and a gun trace is initiated, then yes, the investigators will end up at that FFL (or at least calling him to get the information or a copy of the 4473) and then they are off and running. So ATF may not know at any given moment what you have, but they can find out if they have a reason to trace the gun. If and when a gun gets traced to me, I want something documenting my link in the chain. It’s not a background check, it’s not “registration,” it’s pure CYA.

I dot do any trial work at all, no. Here in my state you dont need any paper work at all for a FTF sale. DOnt complicate things with a FTF, otherwise go through an FFL. Simple, if you dont feel warm and fuzzy about it dont do the deal. Ive talked to a lot of ATF agents and they made it pretty clear your home made “forms” dont mean a thing to them, esp. in a FTF sale. It ight help in court yes but we are loosing simple firearm rights everyday and the day of the “good deals” at gun shows and long gone. Dont complicate what you dont have to. Thats what the government is for…

[dbrowne1]

@99HMC4

I dot do any trial work at all, no. Here in my state you dont need any paper work at all for a FTF sale. DOnt complicate things with a FTF, otherwise go through an FFL. Simple, if you dont feel warm and fuzzy about it dont do the deal. Ive talked to a lot of ATF agents and they made it pretty clear your home made “forms” dont mean a thing to them, esp. in a FTF sale. It ight help in court yes but we are loosing simple firearm rights everyday and the day of the “good deals” at gun shows and long gone. Dont complicate what you dont have to. Thats what the government is for…

It’s not required in my state, either. Or in most states. That’s not why you do it.

As far as what ATF agents have told you they think, I don’t really care. Having the form is, regardless of their opinions:

1. Admissible evidence
2. A way for me to recall when and to whom I sold the gun, so I can then tell them when they knock on my door.

All of which still beats the hell out having no corroborating writing and not remembering.

[Belmont31R]

@dbrowne1

It’s not required in my state, either. Or in most states. That’s not why you do it.

As far as what ATF agents have told you they think, I don’t really care. Having the form is, regardless of their opinions:

1. Admissible evidence
2. A way for me to recall when and to whom I sold the gun, so I can then tell them when they knock on my door.

All of which still beats the hell out having no corroborating writing and not remembering.

Which does what exactly?

I’ve never heard of someone being convicted of a crime because the gun was sold to them at some point in the past without any other evidence.

If anyone is that paranoid about a FTF transaction then go to an FFL, and have it transferred that way. The dealer records with a 4473 is going be more secure than your generic sale form.

Again Ive NEVER heard of anyone getting charged or convicted of a crime simply because a gun used in a crime was at one point tied to a single person.

[99HMC4]

@dbrowne1

It’s not required in my state, either. Or in most states. That’s not why you do it.

As far as what ATF agents have told you they think, I don’t really care. Having the form is, regardless of their opinions:

1. Admissible evidence
2. A way for me to recall when and to whom I sold the gun, so I can then tell them when they knock on my door.

All of which still beats the hell out having no corroborating writing and not remembering.

Then why not just go through an FFl and be covered 100%? It costs the seller nothing. Look, heres what Im saying guys, we enjoy fewer and fewer gun freedoms everyday. Why go and f#*k one more up by adding more work and legalities to something that (in most states) doesnt need it? Common sense is your best protection in a firearm sale. If you dont feel right or just out right dont like the guy dont sell to him or dont buy from him. Why go through all the trouble to “cover your ass just in case” (with home made forms no less) when you guys who are paranoid about FTF sales can just tell the seller to meet at your FFL and do it all in ATF order? Now all we need is some guy to write ATF a letter to open their eyes and the next thing you know we have a open letter from ATF stating all FTF sales are no longer going to be allowed. I even set up my FFL so that I am not the FFL, so I (me) can still do off the books FTF buys for my own collecting. If there was really a need for tighter regulations on FTF private sales, dont you think there would be? Why not enjoy it while we can, if you want to write up a bunch of forms you think will cover your ass in case your gun is used in a crime, thats fine. And if you want to just cash and carry, thats fine to and perfectly legal. This system actually works for us guys, why throw a wrench into it?

[HD1911]

@Whootsinator

Step 1: Give or Receive Cash

Step 2: Give or Receive Firearm

Step 3: Walk or Drive Away

I don’t complicate things. My process is completely legal.

exactly