Pump action shotguns are subject to user error, semi auto’s sometimes jam up on their own.
Shotgun shells vary in length, (even when advertised as 2.75 in, etc)brass is different, and pellets push on the insides of the walls making the shell walls irregularly shaped.
It all makes the job of feeding and ejecting shotgun shells more difficult. On top of this is blunt nose of shotgun shells. Wadcutters aren’t as easy to load into a revolver as other shapes of bullet. We wouldn’t ask a 9mm or .45 auto to feed wadcutters. But we expect if from repeating shotguns. So my question is:
Why are there no rounded nose shotgun shells to help feeding? (with a little divot to keep pressure off the primer of other shells)
I understand that for a given overall shell length you would lose a little payload capacity if the shell had a rounded nose, but not much. You could have a standard crimp on a slightly shorter shell but with a hard rounded cap that would be shot out of the barrel along with the rest of the payload. Or an ingenious crimp that ended in a secure but rounded nose that kept the overall length of the shell standard.
Just a thought…hopefully I’m not leaving money on the tabel but I don’t see how this could not have been tried before!
The conical front idea is in my opinion a solution looking for a problem.
The shotgun, whether a pump, or auto loader, or bolt action, or any other, have been designed for use with the current shell design and function very well. You yourself pointed out that pump action shotguns are subject to user error. In other words, neither the gun nor ammo is at fault here. It is a user error, and changing the ammo is not going to prevent the gun being short stroked. As far as semi autos, I have seen semi auto shotguns, Remington 1100s, Beretta 390s, 391s, and others, who have been shot so much, and are so filthy that the actions literally locked up and prior to that were still running fine and not jamming, and the weren’t being fed high brass or even heavy loads with the most powerful load that they would have been fed would have been a 3dram loading.
Point being, the guns aren’t just going to jam, unless something is wrong, either user error, parts breakage, lack of care, or the most common cause of malfs in a auto loading shotgun poor or under powered ammo because they have been designed to run those flat nosed shells. In all of the malfs I have seen with a shotgun the shell, unless a botched loading was not the cause of malf, and I have put a lot of 12 gauge down range over the past ten years and have seen lots of autos, pumps, and others run at high round counts with nary an issue other than parts breakage and user error. The only time I have seen ammo cause issues is when it was loaded badly, brass chewed up, light powered charge, or jacked up primer.
For one, the crimp would not stay closed.
Secondly, the crimp acts as part of a “resistance” which is part of the good performance of the shell.
It’s supposed to be tight.
The biggest problem I see with shotguns at work are they are run bone dry. It amazes me how smooth and 870 will run once you put a few drops of oil between the receiver and the action bars and on the top and back side of the bolt. Most of the rest of the issues are operator error or just dirty. As said above shotguns are designed for the flat faced shell with a very high straight in feed. David
I have a RAS-12 upper for my 308 AR lower and this thing rocks. They can be found for $289 now so if you have a 308 lower it is a pretty inexpensive endeavor. I haven’t found a good supply of mags yet so I just modified the followers on 308 Pmags. The shells are now down to $1 per round and I imagine I can get that down farther if I can only contact the ammo manufacturer and find out how I can get nose cones and pusher wads in bulk so I can reload my own. The ammo only comes in 00 buck so far but I pull the nose cones off and swap the 00 buck with #7 shot so I can use it for 3-gun matches. I like the fact that my shotty is exactly the same platform as my comp rifle.
Hi MadDog, I sent you a message a few days ago regarding the ras12. I picked 2 uppers up about 6 months ago and I can’t get them to cycle properly. Could you tell me what weight buffer you are using please? Is it an anti tilt buffer? Thanks
You could always pick up a file and some sand paper and go to work rounding out the outer walls of the crimps on your shells.
I’ve never once experienced a feed failure in any pump using flat 2.75" shells in two dozen years. I don’t like semi-auto shotguns and have never owned one, so maybe it would help with feeding on those… I have no idea…
I doubt its a feeding issue. It seems much more like a short stroking problem. I’m getting bolt bite and also stove pipes and occasionally the round is ejected with a no new round going I into battery. Its basically exhibiting a ll the same symptoms of an 15 I built earlier this year. I used a barrel a friend gave me but I didn’t know it was off an acr.turned out the port hole needed to be drilled out 1 size bigger and everything worked flawlessly.
Issue is this upper has a short stroke piston system and none of the parts are off the shelf. I have concerns about modifying things like gas port sizes and I can’t undo those changes or replace the barrel only.
I’m hoping maddog can give me some info on his setup. I’m wondering if maybe my buffers are too heavy considering we are running the same spring that is supplied with the upper.
Just to follow up on this. Turned out the ammo I had was the problem. There’s several version of this upper as well as 2 versions of ammo. Since I got the latest version of the upper designed to run on higher pressures, some of the ammo wasn’t producing the necessary power to cycle. I lightened my buffer and now the heavier ammo cycles flawlessly. I’m sending the lighter rounds back and will receive heavy ammo in exchange from the store.
I also started a Facebook group called intrepid ras 12 owners with pics and videos to come to help others with the same upper.