Hornady 40 gr TAP (83256) for SD?

General Firearms Reloading & Ammunition
1

I came across some comments that Hornady 40 gr TAP (83256) was good stuff for home defense situations where you do not need barrier penetration (such as automobile glass) and need to minimize potential overpenetration issues regarding interior/exterior walls.

It struck me as kind of odd, given that I almost always hear the praises of the 75 gr version, especially the 5.56 version (8126N). So I’m wondering what experienced people think, especially since 83256 seems easier to find than 8126N.

Thanks in advance.

2

Having no personal experience with 40gr TAP penetration, I have used other lightweight projectiles and I will be willing to guess that 40gr lacks the penetration capability (>12") to be recommended as a defensive load. 75gr TAP has very little over penetration issues, and to my knowledge, it is not the top choice in barrier penetration compared to something like the Federal bonded load.

3

It definitely lacks the mass and power of the heavier stuff, but it was specifically designed to transfer energy immediately, and to have less risk of ricochet and over penetration. Many who disparage it seem to be convinced that a round MUST penetrate 12" into gelatin in order to be acceptable for defense. That said, terminal ballistics are not and never will be, and exact science.

Remember, 40 TAP is not designed to be used as a long range sniping round, with one round on target at 600 yards.

I am confident that 4 or 5 rounds of 40 TAP in the torso at less than 5 yards (inside a house distance) will be sufficient to stop a threat.

4

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

It definitely lacks the mass and power of the heavier stuff, but it was specifically designed to transfer energy immediately . . .

Bullets are not phaser beams and “energy transfer” is not a wounding mechanism for small arms fire. Dr. Martin Fackler debunked that nonsense decades ago.

WHAT’S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY

by M.L. Fackler, M.D.
Letterman Army Institute of Research
Division of Military Trauma Research
Presidio of San Francisco, California 94219
Institute Report No. 239
July 1987

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

I am confident that 4 or 5 rounds of 40 TAP in the torso at less than 5 yards (inside a house distance) will be sufficient to stop a threat.

You make a lot of assumptions, the biggest being that you, yourself, won’t have already been shot dead by the time that you are able to fire your 4th or 5th round at a single aggressor, let alone multiple aggressors.

The FBI requirement for bullet penetration in bare ballistic gelatin is 12" - 18" for a very good reason. Not all shots taken in a defensive shooting are going to be direct frontal shots. Several FBI agents in Miami were killed/badly injured because of a bullet that failed to penetrate to 12" in a very bad guy. The 40 grain TAP loads barely penetrate to half of the FBI minimum penetration requirement and are a very poor choice as a self defense load compared to loads that are currently available, such as Hornady’s 75 grain TAP loads.


from Tactical Shooter


The Visible Man

5

Like the above gelatin shows, and based on personal experience on varmints, the 40 grain V-Max starts disintegrating on contact.

I wouldn’t go with anything less than 60 grains for defense and wouldn’t use a varmint bullet either. I would feel more comfortable with a Winchester 64 grain PSP before going with the V-Max.

6

Is the 40gr TAP (83256) the same as the 40gr V Max? I thought they were different products designed for different purposes and different performance.

7

I made the guess based on the fact that the bullet looks identical to a V-max and the above performance in gelatin looks pretty close to what is shown on Hornady’s site for the 40 grain TAP load.

8

Both loads use the same bullet and are loaded to the same velocities.

9

While it is not the only consideration, energy transfer is important, hence the preference most have in expanding projectiles, all other things such as velocity and projectile weight being equal. If it wasn’t important, why use anything other than non-expanding ball ammo? After having served over a decade in an inner-city precinct of one of America’s largest cities, and two tours in Iraq, I am well aware that terminal ballistics is not an exact science. While I have not conducted autopsies, I have seen over 300 people (a conservative estimate) shot with a wide variety of weaponry.

I have also fired many rounds, including various TAP rounds into/through many barriers such as cars and various types of glass, including plexiglas and lexan. TAP is not a suitable barrier round, but I read that Hornady recently came out with a heavy (over 70 grain, but I can’t remember the exact weight) barrier round. I have also tried barrier rounds by other manufacturers, but those were mostly .308.

I mentioned 4 or 5 rounds on target as an example. I am well trained and experienced enough to put that many rounds on target at short range faster than many people can put even their first round on target.

I am well aware that not all rounds fired will be direct frontal shots. In fact, I train for it, and include such paper and 3D targets in the courses I teach.

There are a lot of reasons the Miami FBI agents were killed in 85 or 86. One of these reasons includes using 5 shot snubnose .38 pistols. That type of pistol suffers from lack of velocity, and generally the sights are poor for all but the closest ranges. At least one agent placed his pistol on the seat of his car for quick access, and when he wrecked the car, the pistol flew onto the floor out of reach. The major reason the agents were killed is the fact that most, if not all of them, were shot with rifles. There were two bad guys, both of them former Army, and much more highly skilled than the average burglar.

You are correct that heavier rounds, such as the 75 TAP are superior to the 40. However, I feel the lower risk of over penetration of the 40 is a better option, at least in my home defense situation. I am confident I can overcome the shortcomings of the 40 with accurate and rapid shot placement. A 5.56 40grain rifle round is far better than a pistol round.

If you are in a different situation, that’s great, use something heavier. Heck, use a .308.

In my experience, which admittedly is not in a laboratory and not scientific, the most important factors in small arms terminal ballistics appear to be (in order of importance)

  1. Shot placement
  2. Number of accurate rounds on target
  3. Determination/perseverance of the person who has been shot
    Note that high powered rifle rounds are FAR more devastating than pistol rounds.

Thanks for posting the gelatin pic of the 40 grain TAP. I hadn’t seen one before.

10

Thug Hunter:

For someone like myself, who does not have your training and is concerned about overpenetration in a home defense situation, would you say that the Hornady 60 gr TAP (83286) would be a better selection than the 40 gr version, since it’s positioned between the 40 gr and the 75 gr?

11

The 60 TAP, which is issued by my department, will definitely hit harder than the 40. It pretty much will split the difference between 40 and 75, but not exactly. If I recall correctly, the 75 is an open tip hollow-point boat-tail round, while the lighter TAP all have the polymer ballistic tip.

You have to remember that when you gain something, you give up something. Often in the case of ammunition, a harder hitting round can over penetrate, and if it misses, it will penetrate through buildings. (sometimes through a few buildings)

I have two small children who may be running around scared, maybe trying to get to my wife and me in the case of a home invasion. For me, the trade-off of a softer hitting round is worth less risk of over penetration, either through a bad guy, or in the case of a miss.

Just so there is no confusion, I am saying the 40 TAP is a viable choice with limitations in special situations. It is not the round I would choose to take to, say, Iraq as a contractor.

Added: I understand that there are differnces between TAP FPD and the original version that extend beyond the case color. I have read, for example, that there is an obvious difference in the shape of the powder. I have purchased regular TAP as a private citizen, but some dealers apparently won’t sell it that way.

12

I would take the 60 grain over the 40 grain bullet. They definitely penetrate more and will give you better accuracy with the tighter twist barrel.

13

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

While it is not the only consideration, energy transfer is important . . .

As I’ve already stated, Dr. Martin Fackler debunked the myth of energy transfer as a wounding mechanism for small arms fire decades ago. If you have not read his treatise that I referenced for you in my previous post, here is a quote from it:

Presumption of “Kinetic Energy Deposit” to Be a Mechanism of Wounding:

Serious misunderstanding has been generated by looking upon “kinetic energy transfer” from projectile to tissue as a mechanism of injury. In spite of data to the contrary (1, 63), many assume that the amount of “kinetic energy deposit” in the body by a projectile is a measure of damage (2-5, 36, 37, 40). Such opinions ignore the direct interaction of projectile and tissue that is the crux of wound ballistics. Wounds that result in a given amount of “kinetic energy deposit” may differ widely. . .

Many body tissues (muscle, skin, bowel wall, lung) are soft and flexible–the physical characteristics of a good shock absorber. Drop a raw egg onto a cement floor from a height of 2 m; then drop a rubber ball of the same mass from the same height. The kinetic energy exchange in both dropped objects was the same at the moment of impact. Compare the difference in effect; the egg breaks while the ball rebounds undamaged. Most living animal soft tissue has a consistency much closer to that of the rubber ball than to that of the brittle egg shell. This simple experiment demonstrates the fallacy in the common assumption that all kinetic energy “deposited” in the body does damage. The assumption that “kinetic energy deposit” is directly proportional to damage done to tissues also fails to recognize the components of the projectile-tissue collision that use energy but do not cause tissue disruption. They are 1) sonic pressure wave, 2) heating of the tissue, 3) heating of the projectile, 4)deformation of the projectile, and 5) motion imparted to the tissue (gelatin bloc
displacement for example.) . . .

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

If it wasn’t important, why use anything other than non-expanding ball ammo?

“Consider the example of a modern broad-head hunting arrow. It is used to kill all species of big game, yet its striking energy is only about 50 ft-lb (68 Joules)-- less than that of the .22 Short bullet.”

Dr. Martin Fackler

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

After having served over a decade in an inner-city precinct of one of America’s largest cities, and two tours in Iraq . . .

Please list the shootings in which you personally observed the use of 40 grain TAP ammunition during your service in Iraq and as an LEO.

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

I have seen over 300 people (a conservative estimate) shot with a wide variety of weaponry.

Of those 300 shootings, how many persons were shot with 40 grain TAP ammunition?

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

I read that Hornady recently came out with a heavy (over 70 grain, but I can’t remember the exact weight) barrier round.

Hornady has not released a new .223/5.56m barrier round in over 5 years. Hornady’s only current catalog barrier round in .223/5.56mm weighs less than 70 grains.


Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

I understand that there are differnces between TAP FPD and the original version that extend beyond the case color. I have read, for example, that there is an obvious difference in the shape of the powder.

The powder pictured on the left is from a round of .223 TAP FPD. The powder pictured on the right is from a round of .223 TAP LE. There is no difference in the “shape” of the powders.

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

I have also fired many rounds, including various TAP rounds into/through many barriers . . .

Barrier rounds are not the subject of this thread.

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

I have also tried barrier rounds by other manufacturers, but those were mostly .308.

.308 ammunition is not the subject of this thread.


Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

I am well aware that not all rounds fired will be direct frontal shots. In fact, I train for it, and include such paper and 3D targets in the courses I teach.

Then you should also be well aware that a 40 grain TAP round, with its pathetic 6 inches of penetration will most likely fail to reach the vital organs from a right-lateral shot. In the courses that you teach, do you instruct your students on the FBI’s penetration requirement of 12”-18”?

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

There are a lot of reasons the Miami FBI agents were killed in 85 or 86. One of these reasons includes using 5 shot snubnose .38 pistols. . .

The shot in question was fired from a 9mm Parabellum semi-automatic pistol and you missed the point from my previous post. The round in question was fired by S.A. Dove early-on in the gunfight. It hit Platt from the right-lateral angle and “came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.” The 9mm ammunition used at the time does not meet the FBI’s current penetration requirement, just as the 40 grain TAP load fails to meet the FBI’s penetration requirement. Had S.A. Dove been using ammunition that penetrated 12”-18”, his shot would have perforated Platt’s heart and there is a high probability that Platt would have been physiologically incapacitated much sooner, resulting in far fewer casualties to the FBI agents.

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

The 60 TAP, which is issued by my department . . .

Is it reasonable to anticipate that officers from your department might at some point in the performance of their duties find it necessary to fire shots of the 60 grain TAP in the direction of and/or from inside a citizen’s house? Why did your department choose the 60 grain TAP load over the 40 grain TAP load?

Originally posted by Thug Hunger:

. . . the most important factors in small arms terminal ballistics appear to be (in order of importance)

  1. Shot placement

Shot placement is a matter of marksmanship and training. That can be discussed in the “Training and Tactics” forum.

Originally posted by Thug Hunger:

. . . the most important factors in small arms terminal ballistics appear to be (in order of importance)

  1. Number of accurate rounds on target

Again, a matter of marksmanship and training and can be discussed in the “Training and Tactics” forum.

Originally posted by Thug Hunger:

. . . the most important factors in small arms terminal ballistics appear to be (in order of importance)

  1. Determination/perseverance of the person who has been shot

All the more reason to choose a load that meets the FBI’s penetration requirements.

Originally posted by Thug Hunter:

Just so there is no confusion, I am saying the 40 TAP is a viable choice . . .

The recommendations of Dr. G.K. Roberts differ greatly from your recommendation. The 40 grain TAP load is not found in any of his recommendations. Below is a list of some of his professional recommendations for self-defense/duty loads.

“In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement . . .”

For 1/7 twist barrels,

> Hornady 75 gr OTM
> Nosler 77 gr OTM
> Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM

“If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, heavy 70+ gr loads are not universally accurate in all rifles . . .” (The following loads) “are likely to run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles.”

> 69 gr SMK OTM
> 68 gr Hornady OTM
> Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2)
> Federal 64 gr TRU (223L) JSP
> Hornady 60 gr JSP

14

Wow, I see you’re all worked up over this. As I said earlier;

“You are correct that heavier rounds, such as the 75 TAP are superior to the 40. However, I feel the lower risk of over penetration of the 40 is a better option, at least in my home defense situation. I am confident I can overcome the shortcomings of the 40 with accurate and rapid shot placement. A 5.56 40grain rifle round is far better than a pistol round.”

And yes, many big game animals have been killed by arrows. However, they tend to run quite a distance after being shot. I think bow hunting is a very poor comparison to a self-defense shooting.

My department chose 60 TAP over 40 TAP as our duty round due mainly to the possibility of longer shots, and shots into barriers, including cars. The 60 is clearly a better general purpose round.

As I said earlier, “Just so there is no confusion, I am saying the 40 TAP is a viable choice with limitations in special situations.” I stand behind that.

We should each consider our unique situations, and make a choice after careful consideration of the advantages and disadvantages of a given round. There is no such thing as the perfect round for all situations.

I said my piece here, so I see no need to write anymore on it.

Obviously, we have a disagreement on some things, but no hard feelings.