anyone who has any questions about the differences between “hobby” and “work” guns needs only to look at the difference between Snap-on tools and Craftsman.
when I started racing motorcycles I had a whole kit of Craftsman tools but noticed professional mechanics used Snap-on or the like. I asked a guy once and he said, “for a weekender, the Sears tools will work well. But if you use them for a living, you’ll find out pretty quick what the difference is and why they are worth the money”…
Good post ra2bach. Let’s hope we can convince the OP and similar people that we’re not just setting money on fire by not paying for that “milspec” bushmaster.
I have been shooting one type of firearm or another for more decades than I care to admit. When one does enough shooting, long enough, a pattern becomes clear. Cheap firearms are exactly that- cheap. Some deliver a good value, many do not.
My father owned a gunshop for a short time and was, until he had his last stroke, an incurable horsetrader. Between my father, friends, his friends and family members, I’ve had the chance to see many different types of firearms- high end, affordable, economical and cheap. I’ve managed to be able to afford one or two high end firearms but never a cheap one. Some ARs, like the Colt are affordable. Some, like the KAC are high end. A couple qualify as affordable- more are simply cheap.
It’s been said a thousand times, but it bears repeating- If you don’t know why a milspec AR works, don’t deviate. If you do deviate, know what to look for. An affordable AR is a good value, an economical AR can be a better value, but a high end AR is always a better value than a cheap AR.
Note- An overpriced AR is just a trailer park tramp dressed up in skimpy a dollar store Halloween costume. She might look good at first, but you’ll regret taking her home to meet your mother
ra2bach
Now thats funny! For the record I used both tools -professionally! They both break- alot! One is supper exspensive the other not so much.
They both have lifetime warrenty. Both get the job done. So your point is?:haha:
So while most of this thread turned into a pissing match about the TDP something useful came out of the part that didn’t.
Purchases made by PDs aren’t usually the highest measure of quality…(snip by NWcityguy2) …dollah signs are generally the first thing looked at.
That is 100% the truth. There are a metric butt ton of “hobby grade” ARs being used for duty right now. The reality is there is no hard line between which civilian ARs are meant for duty and which are not.
And that’s why obsessing over what an AR is meant to be used for is a fruitless endeavor. People decide what a gun will be used for and the gun shoots bullets out of it’s barrel.
I know the Iceman. The Iceman is the best car AC mechanic in Houston, and that’s saying a lot. He uses mostly Craftsman.
yeah, and Kobalt tools sponsors a racing team, so what does that mean?
a lot of “professional” mechanics use Craftsman tools because of the price and because of the warranty, you just replace them when they break. but spend a day pulling a Craftsman ratchet and then switch to a Snap-on and a little light will start to dimly glow…
I hate Snap-On ratchets. Whoever thought a smooth round handle was a good idea on an oil soaked ratchet or when you have to wrench by feel should be kicked in the groin. Repeatedly
The difference is your life probably doesn’t depend on the quality of your wrench…
vicious_cb
Already stated I’d use any of my AR’s for that purpose.
With out hesitation.
True, but lives depend on the quality of the maintenance it performs.
I’ve been a long time user of Craftsman tools but a few years ago, I started noticing a significant slip in their quality and have started changing over to Snap-On for certain items, like sockets.
I’ve got to say, no one has a better ratcheting screwdriver than the latest design from Snap-On
No difference from the base argument.
Craftsman, Snap-On, Kobalt, Acme, Binford, Harbor Freight – they all look the same and should do the same function. They’re not made the same, they’re not from the same materials, nor are they backed up the same, either.
“Hobby tools vice work tools.”
You can line up factory-made ARs and carbines and externally they’re close (if not identical). Start shooting them and you start discovering issues, some small, some catastrophic.
No argument there:)
I don’t think the TDP is BS. But, it is a double standard. What is the standard for a pistol to be used for self defense (or carried on duty)? I’ve heard things like 200 rounds of practice and ammo and 100 rounds of whatever your are going to carry. As far as I know, nobody does MPI of their pistol barrel’s (or any other part). Why is the standard there lower? Because the higher standard doesn’t exist?
For a policeman, it seems like the pistol is more likely to be used in a fight than a long gun. Is a S&W M&P 9 more reliable than a S&W M&P 15T? I don’t think so. Why will some of you carry one but not the other?
That said, if I was going to carry an AR into battle I would carry one of the “top tier”. That decision is made easy by the fact that there isn’t that much of a money difference between many of them and many of the “lower tier’s”.
For home defense, I’ll grab my M&P 15 sport before either my glock 19 or my M&P 9 if given the choice.
S&W ARs are proof that you can blow off the TDP and nobody will care as long as the gun itself works.
The reason the TDP is important is because it is, in many ways, the compendium of technical “lessons learned” from years upon years of operational experience in the most rugged environments imaginable. When a certain number of failures occurred, they looked into it, fixed it, and updated the TDP. As a result, weapons built IAW the TDP are much less likely to experience various failures than weapons not built IAW the TDP.
If you spend your time using your weapon to shoot paper plates and dirt clods in pretty controlled conditions, then the TDP may not matter much to you. But if you are a person whose life depends on your weapon and you operate in a ton of environments over which you have no control over (read: law enforcement, military, and security personnel), whether or not your weapon was built IAW the TDP could mean the difference between life and death.
Am I saying that there are aspects of the TDP that have yet to be changed in light of recent developments? Certainly.
But that is not an excuse for a company to ignore the TDP to save a buck while pretending that their weapon is “just as good as” a weapon built by a company who follows the TDP.
S&W doesn’t “blow off” the TDP. In fact, they follow it more closely than most of their competitors (except for Colt, FN, DD, BCM, Centurion, LMT, Spike’s, and Noveske). That said, they are the lowest quality rifle I would be willing to buy.
The parts that they ignore (primarily barrel composition and associated quality control measures, and barrel twist rate) they make up for sourcing the parts from known good suppliers. And my understanding is that they are implementing better quality control measures based upon the TDP. I’m unsure if they fully got it up and running or not, and whether or not they are batch testing or individually testing components.
And they are way overgassed. We did some testing in GA with a midlength being used by a police officer.
I ran with various 5.56 ammo using an H3 buffer and blue Springco. It also ran with the Vltor A5H4 and green Springco spring.
My MKI MOD0 eye ball indicated that is was larger than the standard .076.
If you’re selectively going to follow the TDP, and target a rifle for the $700 out the door audience, they’ve made exactly the right call in my book - run a 1:8 twist and a huge gas port so it handles the widest variety of mediocre ammunition that your target audience is likely to feed it.
Anybody willing to feed a rifle a steady and exclusive diet of 5.56 pressure quality brass ammunition isn’t going to hesitate to just buy the 6920 or equivalent rifle - S&W did a good job of evaluating their market.