Help For Beginners in Regards to Standing Then Moving

Training Training and Tactics
1

Hey All,

I have been making a point to get out and shoot once a week for the last 7 or so months. It doesn’t always happen, but I am very consistent. I keep my targets and there is no doubt I am improving. I am very capable at shooting prone, in a kneeling prone, or using an environmental factor such as a tree, ledge, ext to help me stabilize.

But I have noticed that my standing shots still feel loose and wild. Frankly I’m not hitting my targets as well as should be.

I have looked up stances on this forum and elsewhere, as well as used the search, but does anyone have a basic starting off point they would suggest for me to start getting on target more while standing? After that what about moving and shooting?

My targets are usually 8 and 6" circles, and I get about 35% on target, there is no MOA to speak of that is worth noting.

I have access to a place to shoot, the ammo, ext, but I would like to do the training on my own before I attend a class. I learn by pushing myself first, and I learn best by being able to focus by myself or with a group of trusted people.

So what do you think, where should I start?

2

Have someone take your picture standing in the stance you shoot in and post it here.

3

The stance I have been taught, and use is pretty easy to fall into.

Way 1: Stand squared up to someone, and have them push you back. If you are wired correctly (right handed) you should step back with your right leg to catch yourself. This is the foot posture I use. My distance to the target dictates how much I lean. If I m drilling 5-10rds fast I will be leaning forward quite a bit. I am on the balls of my feet with a healthy bend at the knees and lower back.

Way 2: Assume the natural stance if you were about to get in a fist fight. Now adjust it to fit a rifle. It should end up very close to the stance above.

If I am at increased range, I usually find myself standing up more.

I have looked at footage of myself moving and shooting in dynamic environments and the stance described above is very close to what I am like when I move.

PJ

4

First thing I may be doing wrong is that I shooting standing at targets that are over 25 yards away. This may be helping or hurting me, I’m not sure.

As for my stance, well, I will try and get a photo, but basically it is what you see above, but my support arm is against the mag-well pulling the gun towards my body (not the magazine, the well). The angle of the hand is similar to that seen on the angled magpul grip.

Should I maybe move in closer? What would be a suggested range to start really working on this???

5

In a course. You have a great attitude about pushing failure points but do it under the guidance of a qualified firearms instructor! Crawl, walk, run… If you learn to crawl in an inefficient manner you will progress slower than if you are taught to crawl correctly from the beginning. Shooting schools of thought and techniques are constantly evolving but the learning environment you can experience in a course can be rehearsed alone for sustainment and progression.

Get your self a timer. Run some drills. Go as fast as you can until your accuracy suffers. Be as accurate as you can until your speed suffers.

There are tons of excellent training resources available. Watch some training videos. Try some of the techniques and use what you like & discard what doesn’t work for you.

Be safe…

6

Your stance should be a “fighting” stance, as in you were getting ready to get into a fist fight. If rt. handed- left leg forward, legs more or less shoulder width apart. Knees slightly bent. Chest should be forward almost or over left knee. Possibly think of it as getting ready to shoot for the takedown if you are familiar with this. Elbows should have a slight bend. Head not tilted to either side. This was how I was taught at TigerSwan so I consider it the way to go. You’d be much better served to take a quality training course from the likes of TigerSwan, EAG, MagPul, Larry Vickers, or Kyle Lamb. It’s really hard to get the gist of it over the 'net or by watching a DVD. No substitute for training classes.

7

Take a course. Spend your pre-course time learning basic trigger control and sight alignment, then take a beginner’s course for the rest. No use in building in bad habits from the get-go. That’s what I did, and unlearning them sucks.

8

The smaller the target, the further away, the more you will have to apply the fundamentals. Shooting at a 8" dot at 100m takes alot more skill than a 8" dot at 25m.

I would say stick with engaging targets at greater range. However have some sort of back stop to the target so you can see where your impacts are so you can identify potential problems.

As for the support hand grip. I run it far out.
The link below has some info about support hand grip.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=42168

If you are looking for accurate shooting techniques similar to high power or the like, the above info might not be very pertinent. The info is more geared toward fighting with a gun.

PJ

9

Thank you for your response. Would you be willing to narrow down the resources you talk about, and suggest a few places to start in regards to videos ext?

10

Thanks everyone, I appreciate it, and any help you can give me in regards to videos, online sources ext would be great.

I want to clarify something. I’m sure that many of the hot shots on here think that people like me, when we say this, are essentially indicating that we’re not committed to the discipline when we say things like “I don’t feel like taking a course”, or “I can’t take a course”. And I understand where your coming from, but it isn’t always the case.

I have an intense background with my own personal growth and response in regards to learning, especially when it comes to physical activities. I was a pro skater before I was 17, I was more then capable on a snowboard, trained white water rafting guide, great rock climber, and I am still very very active in other areas. I’ve given up the first three for the sake of my body, but that’s a side note. I have been involved in outdoor sports my entire life, and I can tell you that the one thing I hate more then anything is the extreme sport male super ego. Especially when that ego comes from an instructor. Or from the majority of the good ol’boys that are regulars in said course, said climbing region, said mountain ext. Honestly, it drives me absolutely bat shit crazy.

It is no secret that this ego is pretty damn apparent in the firearms world as well. So, I would rather spend my money on ammo, training by myself, or with people I know, then taking a carbine course from a group of people that I have no idea how big they think their virtual balls are until I end up on sight with them after paying them money.

This fact alone honestly makes me reluctant to take a course.

Also on the pragmatic side, I am getting married in three months, then a two week honey moon. I already got into trouble for putting off the invites because I wanted to drive four hours to a gun show. :wink: I have a solo art exhibition in two weeks, and another in September. Getting out of state for a training course in the next 6 months is not possible at all, and I want to work on things while all of this is going on.

When I do decide to take a course I will be doing a ton of research to find out which provider is the least “big dick” about their approach, and the most practical, but until then I figured I’d ask where to start on my own.

Thanks

11

So you asked for help in your original post, but now you are saying…

:confused:

12

If you are worried about egos and big dicks getting involved in training, you need to look pretty close to some of the big name guys. From my personal experience, and that of those I trust in the shooting community, ego has no part in it.

In the training classes I have attended there have been some legit face shooting dudes. Not ONCE did they ever have a case of swinging dick syndrome.

Now there will be the random guy who has his head shoved up his ass. None of the other shooters are going to get along with him and he will either shut up, drop his fake act, or realize he is a shit bird and move on.

Like most others have said. You want to get better, get training. There are other ways to improve but most are not as efficient or effective.

PJ

13

No, they’ve got the ego, it’s just controlled, directed, focused, and results-oriented, and tempered in an environment where that ego HAS to mesh with a team of other egos. Different worlds, entirely.

14

No, I realize it could have come across like that, but no. I was trying to explain reasons for not taking a carbine class, while still wanting to start progressing forward with my ability. My OP was not about “which class to take” or I would have asked that, my question was about ways to improve shooting while standing, and on the move that I can apply on my own.

15

I’m getting that, too. It’s hard to point out potential areas of improvement without something to go off of, since, by your own admission, you have no way of knowing what might stand refinement or adjustment.

Imagery may be the only way to even hope to start, up until you stop with the silly sophistry about taking live instruction. I won’t comment on incurring the wrath of your fiance. Hell hath no fury, and all that…

16

So then I’ll look into some videos, and get some pictures. Totally fair, it’s a pretty abstract concept to discuss this kind of stuff online. It’s one thing when we talk about components and mechanics, it’s another in regards to physical performance.

17

and there are far more experienced carbine users than me, still
learning . One thing that sticks out to me in the photos is your
elbow.You’re not exactly “chicken winging it” but still way out from
your body. I shoot more squared up to the target, I’m just
more comfortable than with a bladed stance.
However, bladed or squared up, my paradigm improvement
or epiphany if you will was when I started keeping that right
elbow tucked in to the body at ALL TIMES. Suddenly, my
accuracy improved dramatically. Just much more stable, plain
and simple. My bicep is pressed close to my body, eblow
buried in my “love handles” no matter what position.

18

…and that is why this site exists. The mods here are top notch shooters, safe guys & fairly knowledgeable individuals who are working hard for all of us to promote a static free place to swap information.

Congratulations on the wedding. Hope you have time next year to try and get into a class. Follow the AARs and swap some PMs with those who post that you seem to agree with to vet a course. You won’t know what the water’s like until you get in. Best of luck with your training.

Stay safe…

19

“As for my stance, well, I will try and get a photo, but basically it is what you see above, but my support arm is against the mag-well pulling the gun towards my body (not the magazine, the well). The angle of the hand is similar to that seen on the angled magpul grip.”

The one thing he has said that I would recommend that he change is his support hand grip. It is an M4 Carbine, not an MP5, you need to get some support under the weight of the barrel. Get the support hand on the handguard, not the magwell; three solid points of contact on the weapon, two hands and the shoulder.

20

the ego you should be concerned about is your own. Put it aside.

when one realizes they do not know the wise course of action is to seek that knowledge out from those that do, personalities aside.

If I was trying to learn how to do open heart surgery do you think it would be wise for me to try to learn this skill on my own ? I mean, Im a smart guy. I have a list of achievments too, and Im pretty damn hot if I say so myself. Or should I go to a medical school? I mean, those doctors sure do have some ego’s sometimes…

Without humility there can be no learning.