Help a n00b

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

So, it’s getting to be AR time for me. I’ve been reading and poking around for a while, but there is still a boatload I just don’t know about.

  1. One lower vs. another - what’s the difference, other than what’s engraved on it? What do I get by buying anything other than the most inexpensive lower I can that isn’t from Franks Bait and Rifle Parts?

  2. Lower parts kit - again, for just a basic LPK (no adjustable trigger or super-ninja parts), what’s the difference?

  3. Upper - OK, here, I’ve read the chart and know a lot of manufacturers to avoid :smiley: I kind of have two sub-questions…

a) What do I really lose by going with the “cheap” upper? I can get a complete Del-Ton kit for $465 Obviously, there are reasons for that. But if I’m not going to be trusting my life to it… what is so terrible about that?

b) BCM (which I really like and have seen recommended many, many times) seems to love to sell their uppers minus the BCG, which is another $130, and minus handguards. I can get the BCM upper for $489, + $130 for the BCG, +$20-40 for handguards and wind up paying close to $700 with shipping; or I can get the Spikes Tactical upper, seemingly complete, for $535 + shipping. Unless I’m missing something, that’s a good $150 difference, and Spikes seems to be well-regarded, has similar if not identical specs, etc.

So, about me and what I want a carbine for… I am not SWAT, Delta, SEAL Team 6, or anything special. It’s been years since I’ve touched a rifle, and the biggest piece of crap on the planet probably shoots better than I do. I’d like to take a carbine class or two, but in general, this would be for the range / plinking. I’m not going to be expending a thousand rounds every weekend. Honestly, I’d be surprised if I get it out a half-dozen times a year.

I like the idea of a middie since I have no interest in paying the tax for an SBR, and I think the M4 profile is ugly with a 16" barrel. There, I said it :smiley: And I figure the slightly longer sight radius can only help me.

I’m trying to keep this pretty inexpensive, certainly less than $1000

2

Do you have the means to put all these things together? If not you’re going to need to AT LEAST purchase a fully assembled lower and upper and then put them together, but may as well just buy a complete rifle.

For about $1,000 you can get a Colt 6920 and be done with it. Grant just started offering some unique packages too, $1080 gets you a 6920 with Magpul furniture on it, couple more dollars gets you a rail. I’m not sure you can do any better for less money.

I’ll let those more qualified than myself comment on the specifics of your questions.

Sorry, I skipped the part about wanting a middie, I don’t think you can get one of known quality in your price range.

3

It would stick in my craw to pay the 11% excise tax on a complete rifle.

I know I can find someone to help me put the lower together, and I’m looking to get into a complete upper… hence my question about why BCM doesn’t seem to sell such an animal. But so long as the barrel is installed, isn’t dropping in a bolt pretty much just that?

Obviously, I don’t want to get into anything that requires special tools or knowledge. But my reading has led me to believe that putting together a lower isn’t that difficult. Push comes to shove, I could buy a complete lower… BCMs blems are $289 with an M4 stock, so that doesn’t sound like paying too much of a premium for having it done.

4

Listen, good quality rifles cost money. You will get what you pay for if you go with BCM, Colt, Noveske etc…
Save your money until you can buy one of the above. Don’t go cheap. Why would you want to buy twice?? Just MHO after doing a lot of reading on here.

5

Among most of the plain vanilla lowers (no flared magwell etc.) there is not much difference. Some cheaper ones may not be drilled right or the finish is poor. But if you buy from any reputable source I doubt you will have a problem. I have built lowers from DPMS, RRA, and DoubleStar and had no problems with parts fitting correctly, mags fitting, or anything. I usually have just bought whatever is local from an FFL or private party as that is most convenient. I would either buy a brand you can trust or from someone that will work with you to exchange or refund if it is a rare one that is out of spec.

One of the best LPK seems to be from Grant and GandRTactical. He puts together a great kit. Otherwise ones from Daniel Defense, BCM, Colt, etc. For informal range shooting I would not stress about the LPK as almost any name brand kit is going to work fine for that (e.g., DPMS, RRA, etc.). The standard lowers are pretty much the same and I’ve never had an issue with any of them as far as fit and function. You can pay more for better pistol grip, buttstock, buffer, and trigger group.

The uppers vary a lot more. You’ve probably read the pros and cons of the various brands. The second tier brands like DPMS, RRA, Stag etc are plenty good enough for range fun. My SIL has a RRA and it works fine for him. I have LMT and BCM uppers and BCG and they are solid and reliable. Several top tier uppers out there, and several good functional second tier ones as well.

I took a chance and just ordered a PSA upper with FN barrel when they were on sale for $399 (now $429) and that includes the handguards and MPI/HPT bolt carrier group, and charging handle. I’ve ordered from them before and got great service so we’ll see how this one looks but it sounds like it was well made.

I’ve dealt with Rainier Arms, GandRTactical, LaRue Tactical, PSA, PKFirearms, and Bravo Company and every one of them carries quality products and has fantastic customer service. Rock River Arms also delivered quickly and exactly as advertised for my SIL.

I’m sure you’ll get a flood of feedbackl on other options and experiences. Good luck, you can hardly go wrong unless you go out of your way to buy off brand super cheap.

6

Understood… but what is it that I’m paying for? It’s one thing if a given rifle is unsafe, doesn’t operate properly, etc. It’s another to not have one that can repeatedly hit a target at 800 meters.

I’m not looking for “cheap”. I’m looking for inexpensive. This will be a starter for me.

7

I saw that when it came out, and was tempted… but after searching, my God! You’d think I was planning on murdering baby Jesus from some of the comments out there about PSA! :smiley:

I’m in no hurry, and still might grab one of these, figuring I can pass it off or swap it out with another upper. I’m really looking for a 16" but this one seems like a pretty good deal.

If anyone is going to respond by bashing PSA or this particular part, fine… but please include specifics of why I should avoid it. “It isn’t what’s used by Tier 1 operators” isn’t a valid reason for me to avoid it. “It’s going to explode in your face and blind you” would be.

8

I’m not trying to be a jerk, and I’m certainly not the most qualified person to be answering questions. However, I’m pretty sure all of the information you seek is already on these forums, you just need to look. If making the right choice is important enough to post questions about, it’s important enough to research.

That said, I’m having nothing but fun with my PSA lpk and premium BCG. Also love my BCM standard 16" mid length.

9

This is my third AR15 (that I still have) so I am willing to try it out. It isn’t like FN is new to making quality military grade firearms. At that price point I can afford to replace a few parts if necessary. It will be mainly for CMP matches for fun. My last match I forgot to score a couple of shots so I took a miss on them; not like I am trying for Top Gun or anything. I’ve ought BCM and LMT in the past and after adding their BCG, charging handle and handguards I was up over $600 for the uppers. I’ll find out in the next week or so.

10

Hi,

I’ve had good luck with PSA. I built my very first and only AR with a CMMG receiver and used PSA to finish out the lower and BCG. They had some great prices and you could get it with the magpul grip/stock I wanted. My lower came out to $261 with a CTR stock. I didn’t have any trouble building the lower with instructions from the forums.

I put a BCM midlength lightweight BFH on top of it with the PSA BCG, MOE Handguard, MOE Handguard, IWC Micro Mount-n-Slot, BCM GF Charging Handle, MBUS BUIS, total price $739. Rifle total $1000 and everything on it was the way I wanted. I’ve put 150 rounds through it and it has been excellent.

Good luck,

Alan

11

You can get a Century drill from Harbor Freight and it will drill a few holes just as well as a $200 Milwaukee.

12

Colt 6920s are going for about $1050-1100 these days. Save up and buy one.

13

Only you can decide what it’s worth to you. For $1000.00 dollars you can get a top of the line rifle without extras. I would do that and if you like the system you can add whatever bells and whistles you want later. I don’t prefer the look of the 16" carbine M-4 either but I would caution you not to get too hung up on form over function.

I built a PSA carbine, complete for like $750.00 dollars. I think it was pretty good for the money. I shot about 500 rounds and sold it to a friend who has added another 2000 rounds through it.

For your budget and having a problem with taxes you would be hard pressed to beat just going to G&R and ordering a BCM complete lower, second, which I 've never been able to tell why, and buying a BCM upper from Grant as well.

If you really think that Delton or DPMS or whatever is good enough then you really would be better off on the other site.

14

I don’t “think” that. I’m asking… why?

I have no idea what “the other site” is. I’m here to try to learn, not get involved in some silly Internet pissing match. If you’re unhappy with some other site, please don’t dump that on me… whatever it is, I don’t have anything to do with it.

15

A guy I know bought a Delton upper against my advise.
Now he has failure to feed issues with every mag that he has.

When purchasing a budget rifle you are losing a lot.
Chamber dimension.
Testing and quality control.
Properly speced materials.
Customer service.

G&R has Colt SP6920 for $990 right now.
It is on their home page.

16

The questions you’re posing have been asked many times and discussed, often quite vigorously, on this site. Quite frankly, folks are tired of it.

You can find the threads by using the orange search button near the top of the page. Another source of information can be found in the stickies at the top of each sub-forum.

Some things you’ve got to do for yourself

17

If you are looking for a rifle that will just sit in a safe, have only 1-200 rounds through it per year, don’t care if it is accurate or not, and you are ABSOLUTELY certain that your life will never depend on it then there wouldn’t be many noticeable differences between a cheap AR, and a quality one.

However, the idea of buying a “starter” rifle doesn’t make sense to me because it implies that you want to train with it and get better, possibly for classes or competition at some point in the future. If that is your goal, then it would be extremely foolish to spend $800 dollars this year only to find out that you’re not happy with it and need to buy a quality rifle next year. (especially when you could have bought the rifle you need for $1,000-$1,100 now)

Quality rifles, BCM, Colt, DD, etc. are worth the investment in my opinion. They are more accurate, reliable, durable, and will usually shoot the cheap steel-cased ammo better than the lower-tier rifles. If you shoot a decent amount of steel, a quality rifle will save you money over the years.

I also know that I’ve never regretted purchasing a higher quality product, but I’ve certainly regretted many, many, many times when I’ve gone cheap and ended up with a piece of crap that I end up replacing with the item I should have bought in the first place.

Just my $0.02.

18

I’ve built several rifles with del ton parts kits with no issues run like a top. no it is not a top tier rifle but nothing wrong with getting your feet wet with a low end gun then upgrading later (which you probably will) You will usually end up getting 80% or more of your money back should you sell the first rifle. I built a delton 20" full length gun with one of the kits from them and a 65 dollar lower. so a complete rifle under 600 bucks.
How will it be functioning 10 or 15k from now I can’t say, but you essentially have a few choices
Buy a del ton cmmg or similar gun or build in the 700 or less range
buy a higher grade (bcm,colt dd) rifle now for almost double the cost and be done
black rifle disease will likely hit and you’ll buy more guns anyway.
I’ve seen budget grade guns hold up well and others have issues- it is acrap shoot at the lower end- but 80% of the time it will work out ok.
again option 3 -which is what I’d do- buy/built the low end gun learn to shoot it and understand it-figure out what features you need or don’t in a higher end gun, sell the low end gun and buy the higher end one later.

19

I’ve searched. The results are much like how this thread is going…

“You need to buy <Insert Tier 1 manufacturer here>. Nothing else will do. You’re a moron if you do anything else.”

“No, that poster doesn’t know what he’s talking about. But Manufacturer X instead! It’s better, and costs less!”

And then, the inevitable… “Just buy a Colt”.

I’m not asking for the various participants in a religious war to enter the Octagon of Horror, last man standing convinces me to buy what he prescribes. I’m asking…

WHY???

If you can’t, or won’t, answer that, I am not requiring that you participate in a thread that upsets you. There are, I’m sure, lots of threads here where you can engage people who are already experts who don’t ask such obvious, moronic questions. I started out by saying I’m completely new to the topic. I didn’t try to trick you into agreeing that Del-Ton is the best manufacturer ever.

20

This makes sense.

However… I’ve heard lots of people refer to both BCM and Spikes as “quality”. Yet there’s a difference in what I’m paying. Is there a difference in quality or workmanship? What do I get by paying the additional $150 for the BCM, or am I missing something about what I actually get?

What is the difference between this LPK and that LPK? Or this lower and that lower?

If it’s all about the name… if some people just have to take the highest price tag, or to claim that they run all Colt or Noveske, but there’s no other difference, why shouldn’t I save money for equal quality parts? If there is a difference, what is it?