I realize that the Palestinian people aren’t a monolithic block, with the same ideas and attitudes, but I NEVER thought I’d see this…
It sounds like these guys are at least as bad as Arafat in his prime!
We need to make sure both sides have enough ammo to finish the job. 
I second that emotion! 
John
What? You can’t trade land for security! Oh hell, why didn’t somebody tell me? DAH!!!
I am suprised it took hamas this long to take over.
Actually, when one fully understands the The Secret History of Islamic Terrorism, it makes perfect sense. They are a brutal, barbaric people with an even more violent religion that makes peace with NO ONE, not even their Arab brothers with different doctrinal beliefs. There is a power struggle within Islam that goes backs centuries…
I will say that the pics I have seen, besides the idiotic firing into the air, have shown decent weapon handling and tactics. I would bet that these guys in the pics are well trained and part of their elite forces… Not the usual rag-tag ghetto-blasters.
Rmpl
The Palestinians have to choose between the crooked thugs of Arafat’s old regime and the extremist nuts of Hamas. Hamas was elected because of their grass roots support system for the average joe. While it may be of dubious effectiveness and double as a terrorist recruiting system it seems to be actually helping some people which is more than the Fatah govt has done. It was also a sort of “no confidence vote” in the old guard of Palestinian leadership. While I am no fan of the Palestinians, Hamas has been around for some time and was never elected to a majority until very recently. Hamas will win the gunfight, lose the political battle and the Israelis are smart to stay out of it and let it play itself out.
It also bears mentioning that part of the problem is that these people were systematically booted off their own property a few decades ago. Brutal and ignorant savages they may be but they have been and are being royally screwed. If some guy kicked me off my property and made me go through checkpoints in my own land because of some passages in a Koran he doesn’t even read anymore I would be pissed off, wouldn’t you?.
In 1844 - when the Land of Israel was controlled by the Turkish Muslims - the Turkish census counted 7,120 Jews and 5,000 Muslims living in Jerusalem.
Uh, yeah, right. 
But I won’t hijack any further…
Rmpl
We can exchange PM’s if you want because I don’t want to make anyone sit through rabbit chasing but you are way off. History is pretty clear. Jews and Arab Palestinians coexisted peacefully for over a thousand years (from about the 1st Century AD to the early 20th Century). Google Balfour Declaration, Lord Rothschild and Palestinian Mandate and learn how the British amped up Zionism ( a loaded word now, but a viable and active socio-political movement back then). Tensions between Jews and Palestinians in its modern incarnation was started by the immigration of Jews seeking to return to their homeland as described in the Torah. They set off some bombs too (google King David Hotel). I’ll let the history books make my case.
As military/LE/gun totin’ guys, our admiration for the Israelis’ toughness and our disgust at the Palestinians backwardness can, in my opinion, have a tendency to cloud the whole story of what it is going on over there. But that’s just me.
ETA:You lost me on the 1844 thing.
Better to live on a reservation …I guess…evidently in history these things happen…you could give them all the land back and take all the Jews out of the region and they’d still be going after the Jews.
If Israel could do what out forefathers did to the indians…it’d be cool…right?
Timing is everything and we certainly had it on our side. These things happen and there is nothing that can be done about it.
Striker5,
History is unfolding before our very eyes, and most people dont even know it!
Hamas will control the Gaza Strip…
Fatah/PA will control the West Bank.
Israel will not negociate with Hamas, especially now.
Israel will support Fatah/PA, They, I know this sounds weird, are far more “flexible” , “Rational?” than Hamas.
The reason for this whole situation is because we in the west have failed, or not wanted to know, that Radical Islam has been at war with us since the early 70’s… We allowed Arafat to pull his shit for years… He had a chance at 95% of the west bank and all of Gaza, and he balked because he wants it all! Now he’s dead from Aids and no one wants here that, but if he had taken the plan layed out by the PM, he would have his Palestine, But NOOOOOOOOHHH!
The kicking off their land bit, is out there buddy, since palestine has never existed as it’s own country… It was a Roman designation, Judia, then many other owners and the last the Otoman empire from Turkey. They blew it and sided with the Germans in WW1. The brits were supposed to create a Jewish Homeland and then backed out. Created Jordan. Then it was under British and French rule/influence until WW2. After WW2 and with Millions of jews having been slaughterd, yes Slaughtered, The millions of displaced Jews, needed some place to go, because no one else would take them!
After 3 years of the Brits fighting Jewish “illegal” Immigration into palestine, the admin name for the area, the UN, Yes the UN created the conditions (With G-od’s help I’m sure) where Israel was created. May 15th, 1948?
Then the Arabs invaded the tiny nation… We, the US were the first nation to recognise Israel… We have been helping this pea sized nation, compared with the vast Arab nations around it, since then.
The truth is as follows: No matter what liberal BS people want to hear, Israel will defend itself and has been doing it, for over 60 years now… Against Russians weapons and advisers, Billions of bullets later they are still there and will continue to be so.
Watch out Ahmadenashaad, Israel will stop Iranian Nukes… They will do what ever they need to do… What would have happened if the Jews had not taken out Saddams Nuke reactor? The walk we had in 91 and the initial phases of active combat in 03 (Not to say that what we have now is easy, not by any means) would never have happened… The US Does not have the guts to do what has to be done in Iran, but the Israeli’s do!
I dont think anything like that will happen as the Mossad will deal with the situation and will also forment rebeliion from within Iranian student movements… 75% of Iran is under 26 years old, There is a big wave coming in Iran and the Mullahs will fall. Hopefully before we have to do something or
G-od forbid the Israeli’s do!
Israel will survive… and as Long as we support Israel, so will we!
Jon
Rhino,
A very succinct historical run-down. The Arabs have been so busy fighting each other over the centuries that their borders are always being drawn by someone else in ancient as well as modern times. The fact that they didn’t have their own globally recognized country didn’t mean they didn’t have their own property and they lost that property. The fact that they were too retarded to keep it does not make it okay to take it.
Also, the fact that a first world, developed nation slaughtered six million people has nothing to do with it being okay to disenfranchise some one on another continent and maintain the status quo with a police state. That’s taking sympathy a bit too far.
Israel has little or nothing to do with our security as a nation. If they ceased to exist (which won’t happen) the Arabs would still hate us but I don’t see it altering terrorist operational ability. The only argument you could make would be if they got their hands on Israel’s nukes, which would indeed be bad, but that is not the argument the Israeli’s make. They would have some coastline and a bunch of equipment they wouldn’t be able to maintain or deliver. Our society would continue to stagnate, Europe would continue to be spineless, Arabs would continue being Arabs. The rags would infight then they would get some sort of dictator, just like the rest of the ME.
For me it’s not about them. It’s about us. Who do we support and why? What types of behavior are we co-signing as a nation? We helped the world run South Africa out of business because running a racist police state is wrong, even one fighting a Communist insurgency. But Israel gets a decent size check every year. That’s the key. I could care less what Israel does. I do care about what and who we as a nation expend our money and political and moral capital on.
We should bow out of that quagmire.
1911,
I had a delayed reaction to your post. Reservations were/are not ok. Slavery was not ok, the Tuskegee Institute was not ok the list goes on. We are far from perfect as a nation, but I would rank us #1 in the national conscience department. The fact that we have skeletons in the closet should not morally cripple us form making judgement calls about are current national policy anywhere, not just the ME.
Japan gets an F. Last time I checked they still denied that the rape of Nanking happened and they apologized for WWII like what, ten years ago?
My point is whether these things are your or my definition of OK does not matter in the least. They happen and they will happen again just change the faces…hell our wonderful policy along with the UN in Kosovo propped up F’ing radical Muslims. You cannot negotiate this, you either fight to win and attain complete victory or you lose and become a paper tiger.
Let’s get a list started of everyone that wants to send all of their rat-holed Wolf 7.62 to the region to assist in this cause.
1911,
Yours, mine and by extension our collective “American” opinion does matter because it forms (in part) our national and international policy. It matters more than anyone else’s opinion because it is our very own just as our resources are are own. We didn’t get to be the greatest nation on earth by practicing moral relativism.
I agree totally with your point that the world can really suck and you can’t stop or save everything. But it is our obligation to act or not act based on our national interests and OUR sense, as a nation, of what is right.
And America is not about secret police, theocratic bigotry and bulldozing houses. We have dabbled in these things ourselves as a nation and have expressed our regret and moved on.
I don’t envy the Israelis the moral dillemma they have maneuvered themselves into. You can’t stand passively by and be murdered, but you can’t treat people that way and expect to move forward as a nation.
They are fortunate to have such unsympathetic adversaries. Imagine if the Palestinians were black.
It is written:
Zechariah 14:12 “This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that have fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.” Zech.14:15 “A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.”
You DO know that, in Israel, you can be a Palestinian Israeli citizen with full rights and voting priveledges, right?
How many Jews are there in the Palestinian .gov?
Thought so.
:rolleyes:
Bulldog1967,
Right you are… Israel does have a government and has had elections since 1951… Gaza is ablaze now and Hamas, a true terrorist organization will control Gaza, Fatah in the West bank… The arabs SAY it’s about the occupation and if that went away, there would be no problems… Yeh? Sure…
It’s about the destruction of Israel and the Jews… As long as the Jews live under Arab control, they have existed for centuries… But get 1 country with Jews calling the shots, and it’s freak out city!
Israeli Arab Citizens have the vote, can have any job they get hired for and the like… I do believe the IDF is Jewish only, I could be wrong, but, it is a Jewish Nation… We dont believe in a state religion, but they do and every Israeli lives it everyday, some more than others of course… But when the SH@t happens, they do pull together because, where do they have to go? The Sea?
Wrong answer.