After a recent standoff, with the loss of 2 officers, the after incident discussions have revolved around having mass quantities of ammunition for perimeter fire suppression. (Semi-rural) We have several other bags, but this incident focused on stationary firing positions under dodgy cover, and the resupply of ammunition. We drew up and prototyped a bag with the minimum dimensions to hold 12 AR mags, 6 pistol mags, and 2 mini bang grenades. Though this is somewhat outside the needs of an active shooter, the bag has compact dimensions, (10"Lx8"Hx3"D), and can be filled differently. I would like forum feedback on this one.
Since you mentioned dodgy conditions I would think a flap cover over the zippered main compartment would protect from water/dust/etc better than just the zipper?
I would want a flap or other form of retention for the flashlight pouch too.
A waist strap or way to attach to the duty belt to keep the bag from swinging around too much while moving from position to position would be nice also.
good bags, but get the recon rifle bag model instead. The end pouches can be used to hold water or more mags.
Yes, the smaller one can hold 12 mags, but nothing much else.
From my experience, I don’t like to have mags loose in a bag. They can fall out while running or when you toss it to someone else. The problem is that you have to close the flap, which may be something you forget in the heat of the moment.
I prefer something with velcro pouches holding no more than two mags each.
Your pouch also needs to have some med kit in it, thus the recon rifle bag is a better option.
The side pouches are extremely tight, and the original purpose was for a clip knife… it was a case of “let’s see what will fit here” when I took the photo. We can add a flap over these end pockets, but they will get even tighter with the added thickness. The zippers have meeting lips to keep down dust entry and abrasion, the M4 mags all have elastic retainers to keep them in place, and the issue with our flapped bags has always been, where to stow the flap if you’ve got it secured to your waist or leg. The pictured Recon bag (ours) is a prime example… Attaching something like that to your leg has got to make it tough to run. The QND issue of waist attachment was originally covered by having strap mounts on the back side. During the first production run, we decided to switch those from simple rectangles to rifle triangles so that the shoulder strap might be relocated and used to make the assembly into a semi-chestpack.
I see. I get your intent, this looks to be a fairly specialized design. On stowing the flap, maybe you can incorporate a full width pocket between the flap and the rear of the bag that the flap can fit into, if my description makes sense.
Looks like a great set up. What about attaching straps so that an LEO can secure it over his back when running to get into position or infront of his chest where he can move and still being able to retreive mags in a firefight. Hawk Pak makes great products I have one of your tactical molle raid vest and I love it… custom made to fit my big ass… I looked for a long time and tried several brands before I when out and bit the bullet spending the money on a Hawk Pak vest. Best investment ever. You get what you pay for when it comes to gear. By the looks of it your on the way to another great product. Keep up the great work we all appreciate it.
Badboy… next time you’re in town, stop by and I’ll show you how the backside clip mounts can be used to “fight” the bag. They allow it to stay on your chest at an angle so that you can pull the mags. You can scoot it around to the back. Unfortunately, the strap rides across your strong shoulder… May have to make a specific ammunition carrier just for active shooters. About the backside pouch idea… If the pouch is made wide enough for the flap, the flap may not be wide enough for good cover on the bag… have to think about that. Could just fold flap in half with Velcro… sorta out of the way.
Right now I carry one of your ITOA bags and a molle bandolier for extra rifle magazines.
If I were going to deploy a bag like the QND I would skip the pistol mags to save the weight or use the space to carry more rifle mags. I think smoke would be more useful for perimeter work that bangs.
I would prefer a flap like the E&E bag that just secures with velcro, it’s easier to open, access the bag, and close than a zipper. It’s not as secure as a zipper, but I think it’s a good trade off.
pcf, you’re right about perimeter needing smoke more than close quarter distraction devices. Pocket smoke grenades will fit where a mini-bang fits. In fact, most 37-40mm devices will fit there. This is where forum input gets good… If you were going to save weight by eliminating pistol mags in the outside pocket, you probably wouldn’t be loading the entire 12 M4 mags in in the first place. You also may not be planning on having a backup weapon… something an LEO would always have. Since all M4 mags have individual elastic retainers for each pocket, once the bag is open, there’s no need to close it… and it makes a convenient dump pouch for empties. Keeping open space allows more room for a trauma kit, or a water bottle, all in a smaller format than our MA-54/60 Rifle BugOut/Recon Rifle bags. 240ci. vs. 405ci internal. Think of it as better space utilization. We could build a flapped version, and a pistol would definitely fit better inside… but then the pistol mags would be essential. The ITOA and MiniMag Cache are definitely the minimalist approach in our line.
Hey Ed,
the bag looks great, I would like to see them next time I come to town. For those of you who have not used any HawkePak gear its very solid. I started using there stuff on my first deployment to the gulf about five years ago, than to Iraq, and recently to Afghanistan. There stuff is very rugged and very very well priced. I have a couple of the molle rifle bags, several mag pouches, IFAK’s, gore-tex ruck liners, one of there gas mask mags, and other kit lying about. I noticed how well there construction is compared to blackhawk and even tactical tailor. seems like a lot more attention to detail.
I could see that being very useful as a supervisor’s resupply or drop bag.
We have made all the patterns for a new version of the QND… It will be 10"Lx9"Hx3.5"D. This is an inch taller and .5" deeper than the original. It will be an open topped style with a cover flap. The double inside walls will be opened to allow the flap to tuck into the back wall, and the front will make a map pkt. The 6 inside pouches are gone, and you’ll get blank Velcro walls, which you can fill with any of our velcro shingles… Pistol mags, rifle mags, radio, admin. or first aid pouches. There will be a detachable belt strap. The flat end pockets are now large enough for 1 M4 mag each, and have adjustable lid flaps. Results of the sizing survey showed an even split of people wanting a bigger, or a smaller bag. These dimension changes were to make previous pattern parts work, and to give just a skosh more room inside. Hopefully the changes will address preferences expressed on this forum thread.
Skintop… Thank you, that was the exact focus. Ed
I like the idea of the velcro wall as im sure the LE guy do also. Not a whole lot of that velcro wall in military applications but than that was not the application. sounds like that will fit the need well.
Paraclete… The upside is it’s customizable… and it’s the downside too. An example is MOLLE… Time consuming to produce, therefore more expensive and the customized bag or vest really doesn’t get changed much after the settling in period. However, as with our customized loadbearing vest program, it may make people happier than mass produced compromises.
Yeah to be honest after using one of your bags with velcro in it I really do like it. I do not end up re-configuring it honestly, just play with it initially till its right than it stays put. like you mentioned similar to MOLLE, set up once and trained with for a work up. That said once your used to mags being here, or MBITR there, keeping SOF-T on a specific spot, etc you don’t move it really. So I like the design and I like the idea.
It seems like you can never really please everyone making things of that nature. It was clearly designed for a specific job and it accomplishes that very well. Not really a military standard but no reason it could not be.
Cheers
As mentioned in this thread, there were some suggestions about an open top, flap secured bag. Along the way, I figured out how to make integral mag pockets on the ends. To counter objections of the QND having too specific pocketing, I built this one with pure Velcro inside walls. Now, any “shingle”, available with Velcro backing, will fit. There is also a fore and aft set of slim pouches… in the back so that the flap can be stowed, in the front just because, and a dedicated waist strap. We also are giving a little more room under the elastic pistol mag storage in the front. The next variant will size the bag down from 12 internal M4 mags in 6 pouches, to 8 internal in 4 pouches+2 external… 7.75"Wx8.5"Hx3.5"D, and following that is a version for Suarez International to hold 6 internal AK mags+2 external. Dimensions 10x10x3.5"
I’m about done with the QND variations for a while, though I gotta say this one looks right. It is 8.5"Hx6.75"Wx3.5"Deep. The main focus was to make internal storage as compact as possible for 8 M4 magazines, or whatever, 4 pistol mags under the flap, and 2 external M4, again… or whatever. There are 2 flat wall pouches inside, and an adjustable/removable waist belt. The picture looking into the dark maw shows a 1911, and 2 M16x30s… Not quite visible is another M16x20… after which I was out of magazines. Realistically, this could hold the pistol, some power bars, a good light, some water, and still have room for lots of rifle ammunition.
Sent you a PM.
The mags need to be rapidly accessible. Think of an open shingle with a bungie strap. But not collapse if there isn’t anything on the inside. Think of a bag you can throw over your shoulder and rapidly pull mags out if needed.
Pistol mags should be stored on the inside, because you’ve shifted your mindset from sidearm to long gun in an active shooter scenario.
Personally I’d like to see a bag that can be utilized almost like a chest rig, but with enhanced storage. Mind you this is an “oh crap I might need more ammo” bag. Not everyone runs around in a TRU rig. With six magazines available in the aforementioned configuration. I have a concept in mind if you’d like to talk about it.