Handloads so good they keyhole!

[STAMarine]

Gents, I don’t know if it is possible to unf**k me, but I’m going to see if you all can give it a shot.

I’ve spent a lot of time over the last year learning the ins and outs of reloading in mostly .223, 9mm, and .45 ACP. I thought I was ready to move up to match ammo reloading, but obviously this isn’t the case.

I’ve spent all summer doing ladder tests and working up a .308 match load. My final load was pretty close to Newberry’s recommended load for finding the high node. I was getting good groups around both his low and high node recommendations, but I loaded twenty-five rounds of the hotter one for velocity.

Now, I’m a decent shooter with a good deal of precision shooting in the military and after on my own. I can shoot sub MOA consistently, and like most others, better on my good days. I can’t tell you what my rifle is capable of because it shoots better than I do. I have shot sub half minute groups on those rare days when I’m on my game. It is a McMillian tac with a 24" barrel. I don’t have my log book with me, but it has a little over 2,200 logged round through it. I have been shooting factory ammo also during the time I have been doing my workups and there has been no drop in accuracy. It’s not the shooter or the rifle. That being said, I am not a competition or a bench shooter, and I’m not good enough to be. I’m looking for ammo that is as good or a little better than Federal GMM, cheaper that GMM, and since I have been stockpiling components, more available to me than GMM. I’m not doing neck turning and such to get bench rest accuracy because that’s not my intended purpose, and I couldn’t utilize that level of accuracy even if I could reload that well.

My load is Sierra 175gr Mk, LC brass once fired through my rifle only, 43gr of 4064, Federal match primers, neck sized, and bullet seated with a Forester Ultra seating die.

I was getting a little less than MOA at three hundred for my first ladder and about the same at four for my second. Not great groups, but when this happens I tend to blame myself as having an off day or out of practice. I picked the best load, and loaded up twenty five rounds for my first trip to my home range for a full shooting session. I shot my first group at 850. Nothing. I thought I had really screwed up my wind call so I shot a second group and again, nothing. I then shot a decent group with factory ammo to test my rifle. When I went to check the last group I notice two holes in the bottom and middle of my target board I hadn’t noticed the first two times I checked, both perfect keyholes. Now, I was using a 8x4’ political sign as my target backer. This was a three foot group of two keyholes!

No impact no idea on where I should go from here. I’ve researched, read, asked, and haven’t been able to put what I’ve learned into practice.

All that I can offer is perceived recoil was lighter on my loads than the GMM ammo I used to check my rifle.

Where do I go from here?

[Bimmer]

WAG here… You’re shooting longish 175s at 850yds, and the recoil is less than “normal,” so… I’m guessing they’re spinning too slowly and destabilizing.

What’s the twist of your barrel?

[rcoodyar15]

@STAMarine

Gents, I don’t know if it is possible to unf**k me, but I’m going to see if you all can give it a shot.

I’ve spent a lot of time over the last year learning the ins and outs of reloading in mostly .223, 9mm, and .45 ACP. I thought I was ready to move up to match ammo reloading, but obviously this isn’t the case.

I’ve spent all summer doing ladder tests and working up a .308 match load. My final load was pretty close to Newberry’s recommended load for finding the high node. I was getting good groups around both his low and high node recommendations, but I loaded twenty-five rounds of the hotter one for velocity.

Now, I’m a decent shooter with a good deal of precision shooting in the military and after on my own. I can shoot sub MOA consistently, and like most others, better on my good days. I can’t tell you what my rifle is capable of because it shoots better than I do. I have shot sub half minute groups on those rare days when I’m on my game. It is a McMillian tac with a 24" barrel. I don’t have my log book with me, but it has a little over 2,200 logged round through it. I have been shooting factory ammo also during the time I have been doing my workups and there has been no drop in accuracy. It’s not the shooter or the rifle. That being said, I am not a competition or a bench shooter, and I’m not good enough to be. I’m looking for ammo that is as good or a little better than Federal GMM, cheaper that GMM, and since I have been stockpiling components, more available to me than GMM. I’m not doing neck turning and such to get bench rest accuracy because that’s not my intended purpose, and I couldn’t utilize that level of accuracy even if I could reload that well.

My load is Sierra 175gr Mk, LC brass once fired through my rifle only, 43gr of 4064, Federal match primers, neck sized, and bullet seated with a Forester Ultra seating die.

I was getting a little less than MOA at three hundred for my first ladder and about the same at four for my second. Not great groups, but when this happens I tend to blame myself as having an off day or out of practice. I picked the best load, and loaded up twenty five rounds for my first trip to my home range for a full shooting session. I shot my first group at 850. Nothing. I thought I had really screwed up my wind call so I shot a second group and again, nothing. I then shot a decent group with factory ammo to test my rifle. When I went to check the last group I notice two holes in the bottom and middle of my target board I hadn’t noticed the first two times I checked, both perfect keyholes. Now, I was using a 8x4’ political sign as my target backer. This was a three foot group of two keyholes!

No impact no idea on where I should go from here. I’ve researched, read, asked, and haven’t been able to put what I’ve learned into practice.

All that I can offer is perceived recoil was lighter on my loads than the GMM ammo I used to check my rifle.

Where do I go from here?

What twist is your barrel? 1:11 maybe even 1:10 is really what you need with that bullet and range

Chronograph those loads and plug them into a ballistic calculator. My suspicion is that your velocities are low and your bullets are going subsonic and are not stable.

[texasgunhand]

Edit, sorry didn’t see that it wasn’t making keyholes at 400 but at 850, I would still drop the grain down to the 160ish range. But thats just my preference. I take it that it wasn’t doing it with the factory ammo at 850? Then I would also say its running outa power and destabilizing if your twist rate is good for that heavy a bullet.

[IraqVet1982]

TAC308’s are 1:10… I’d pull a bullet and check the charge to confirm you’re throwing a consistent charge… Other issue might be that the bullets aren’t seating concentrically… Might also want to chamber a round and eject it to make sure nothing funky is happening.

[STAMarine]

I think my twist is 1:10. It was actually a gift from my dad when I graduated sniper school. He’s passed away and I know the paperwork used to be in his office but I can’t seem to locate it. However, it doesn’t have any problem stabalizing Federal 175’s.

I thought about the bullet going subsonic, but with that much powder should that be a concern at 850? I know a chronograph would help, but I don’t have one.

IraqVet, when I chamber a round and eject, what should I be looking for?

[rcoodyar15]

@texasgunhand

Edit, sorry didn’t see that it wasn’t making keyholes at 400 but at 850, I would still drop the grain down to the 160ish range. But thats just my preference. I take it that it wasn’t doing it with the factory ammo at 850? Then I would also say its running outa power and destabilizing if your twist rate is good for that heavy a bullet.

But

the heavier bullet is the way to go at the longer ranges

the 168 match king is a great performer up to 600 yrs. In fact that it what it was designed for. but it has a reputation for doing exactly what you are seeing at the longer ranges and subsonic velocities

[STAMarine]

I actually started out using the 168’s in the Federal loadings. I had better accuracy at shorter distances than the 175’s, but I was getting better groups with the 175’s at farther ranges. I guess it was just bucking wind better.

Maybe I am going subsonic and need to increase my charge weight to stay supersonic, but that will throw out my data from my ladder tests. I’m not at max load and I’m not showing pressure signs, so I have room for more velocity. So, what’s the scientific way to get my true long range load since I have tried the ladder work ups and failed?

[Bimmer]

@STAMarine

So, what’s the scientific way to get my true long range load since I have tried the ladder work ups and failed?

300 Win Mag?

[IraqVet1982]

@STAMarine

I think my twist is 1:10. It was actually a gift from my dad when I graduated sniper school. He’s passed away and I know the paperwork used to be in his office but I can’t seem to locate it. However, it doesn’t have any problem stabalizing Federal 175’s.

I thought about the bullet going subsonic, but with that much powder should that be a concern at 850? I know a chronograph would help, but I don’t have one.

IraqVet, when I chamber a round and eject, what should I be looking for?

Setback. Measure the OAL before and after, if its the same that can be ruled out.

[STAMarine]

@IraqVet1982

Setback. Measure the OAL before and after, if its the same that can be ruled out.

Good deal. I have a Hornady OAL gauge so I can do that.

[rcoodyar15]

@STAMarine

I actually started out using the 168’s in the Federal loadings. I had better accuracy at shorter distances than the 175’s, but I was getting better groups with the 175’s at farther ranges. I guess it was just bucking wind better.

Maybe I am going subsonic and need to increase my charge weight to stay supersonic, but that will throw out my data from my ladder tests. I’m not at max load and I’m not showing pressure signs, so I have room for more velocity. So, what’s the scientific way to get my true long range load since I have tried the ladder work ups and failed?

What I am going to say will probably bring out lots of disagreement but this is what I would do.

First look at the load data in the loading manual. I am looking now and max is 42.8 gr 4064 41.7 gr varget 41.5 gr 4895 etc.

now you know that these manuals are conservative. You know what pressure signs are. You need to find your max load and work down from there. If you weren’t doing the long range thing but the accuracy thing then my advice would be opposite.

I would pick a couple or three powders and start mid loads and load up to well over max at 0.5 gr increments with each. You can load just one round or three rounds of each powder and powder charge. color the bullet from the olgive to the tip with a sharpy. each load a different color. Use a white sheet of paper with an aiming point on it as a target. use a different target for each powder. shoot them, the further the better, stopping when you start getting pressure signs. You found your max. then gather up your targets and see what colors grouped together. That is the load to work on.

For long range most likely you are going to be using loads at the edge of max. Some people can just lob them in with a normal load but it isn’t common.

It would be nice to find someone with a croney. You will need the velocity of your chosen load eventually

[TomMcC]

You might consider a worn throat also. With 2200 rounds down the pipe and longish BT bullets you might be right on the edge of a too worn barrel.

[STAMarine]

@rcoodyar15

What I am going to say will probably bring out lots of disagreement but this is what I would do.

First look at the load data in the loading manual. I am looking now and max is 42.8 gr 4064 41.7 gr varget 41.5 gr 4895 etc.

now you know that these manuals are conservative. You know what pressure signs are. You need to find your max load and work down from there. If you weren’t doing the long range thing but the accuracy thing then my advice would be opposite.

I would pick a couple or three powders and start mid loads and load up to well over max at 0.5 gr increments with each. You can load just one round or three rounds of each powder and powder charge. color the bullet from the olgive to the tip with a sharpy. each load a different color. Use a white sheet of paper with an aiming point on it as a target. use a different target for each powder. shoot them, the further the better, stopping when you start getting pressure signs. You found your max. then gather up your targets and see what colors grouped together. That is the load to work on.

For long range most likely you are going to be using loads at the edge of max. Some people can just lob them in with a normal load but it isn’t common.

It would be nice to find someone with a croney. You will need the velocity of your chosen load eventually

I need to look it up but you’re correct on the Sierra max but I’m below the posted max on IMRs website. I still have a little way to go, especially considering the lack of recoil and zero pressure signs. So have I been going for pure accuracy at short range with the ladder tests and longer range requres pushing max? Will my accuracy still be around MOA at max possibly. I know anything is better than what I have now but minute of man is better than minute of barn.

[STAMarine]

@TomMcC

You might consider a worn throat also. With 2200 rounds down the pipe and longish BT bullets you might be right on the edge of a too worn barrel.

Holy crap! I thought .308 was good for like 6,000 to 10,000 rounds and it was something like the 6.5’s that burnt out that quick. I sure wish I had headspace numbers from when it was new.

[Leaveammoforme]

Using .496 as the ballistic coefficient on your 175’s and generic weather data…

To go trans-sonic at 800 yards your muzzle velocity would have to be 2100 FPS.

Lack of recoil tells us you have a light load, but 2100 FPS light? Who knows. Got to get a chronograph.

[rcoodyar15]

@STAMarine

Holy crap! I thought .308 was good for like 6,000 to 10,000 rounds and it was something like the 6.5’s that burnt out that quick. I sure wish I had headspace numbers from when it was new.

That barrel still has plenty of life left in it. The beauty of a .308.

Yes if you want to shoot long range you need to find your max. It will be considerably above what is in the book. You are going to have to try different powders too. I like varget and RE-15 but then I don’t shoot long range with my .308. It is my hunting rifle and I shoot the berger 168 VLD. For example berger says my max is 42.5 gr varget Hogdon says my max is 46 gr I use 44 gr.

For your 175 gr 4064 hogdon says your max is 45.6 gr

[rcoodyar15]

After you find the powder and charge that your rifle likes then you can start playing with COL’s. the target below has five groups with the seating depth changed 0.01 for each group. With bergers it really makes a difference. MK’s more forgiving.

[texasgunhand]

As far as cronys,i asked a bit ago becouse I need one also and the compitition electronic seemed to be well liked,midway has it for $99 last time I checked. I have had really good luck with them,ordered a bunch of stuff and never had a problem.

I just looked at some factory .308 ammo (hertures,sorry not spelled correctly)my cousin had shot and the primers were flat as could be, his reloads were not. So I wouldn’t be scared to increase your charge a bit till your find max. The books are not going to publish data they could get sued over. Just step up a little bit at a time.

Thanks for the info on the 160gr bullets,makes sense, I don’t have a place to shoot over 500 yards so I’ve never tryed.

[texasgunhand]

@rcoodyar15

After you find the powder and charge that your rifle likes then you can start playing with COL’s. the target below has five groups with the seating depth changed 0.01 for each group. With bergers it really makes a difference. MK’s more forgiving.

Nice,really shows how much COAL can make a difference. Finding that sweet spot really shows.