Handgun Caliber question

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
1

I posted the same topic at 10-8 thought I would get some opinions here as well.

I hate to even touch upon this topic, but I wanted to get opinions of the guys that know more than I. I am in the market for a new M&P. I was thoroughly sold on getting the .45. With rising ammo cost across the board, having to pay for rifle and handgun ammo. Is going with a 9mm a more viable option than it was in not so distant past. I don’t want to put a price on mine or someone else’s life, but to be able to adequately train, and put rounds down range, it is certainly reasonable to conclude that one can afford to shoot significantly less than in the past. Comparing ammo on just one website showed that a case of 9mm was $185, compared to a case of 45 ACP was $300. That in my book is a pretty significant price difference. Is this a good enough reason to use and carry a 9mm pistol? I’m truthfully not trying to make this in to a debate of this or that caliber, but I thought it may be noteworthy in relation to ammo prices. I realize that this is endlessly debated in many circles as well, but you can’t make a decision without first hearing both sides.

2

I consider all handgun calibers as weak.

With that said sure I like .45ACP best. When I carry a .45ACP it’s with 230gr Win Ranger SXT.

This doesn’t mean that I feel undergunned with a 9mm. When I carry a 9mm I carry with with 127gr+P+ Winchester Ranger SXT or 124gr+P Speer Gold Dot.

3

If you trust calibrated ballistic gelatin, all service pistol calibers employing a modern jacketed hollow point round perform similarly, i.e. very effective for what they are.

As was alluded to before, they are pathetic pop-guns compared to carbines.

4

a big +1 to what was said here…I used to fret about the 9mm vs. .45 thing…it just isn’t justified once you realize that modern defensive ammunition is leveling off the caliber debate…

winchester provides an excellent tool for comparison of performance in expansion/performance on their website…

go here, and click the “launch testing tool”

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing.aspx

For what its worth, I generally carry the 147 grain RA9T when I carry 9mm (I will occassionally use the speer 124 +p gold dot in a weapon that doesnt like the heavier round, like the P7), and either the aforementioned 230 grain Rangers or Speer 230 Grain Gold Dots (i believe the performance of the two are interchangeable, so whichever I can get cheap, I use) when I carry .45…

5

As I’m not an ammo expert, is there any issue with over penetration with a heavier load with higher pressures, considering you are using an expansion type round(JHP).

6

trio,

Great link. Thanks.

7

I will always choose over-penetration over under-penetration. It is more important that my bullets reach deeply enough to perforate vital vascular structures, especially a concern when people start wearing more and more layers that the bullet must defeat. I personally use Speer GD and Fed HST, the latter was originally chosen due to it’s low cost, allowing me to train regularly with my carry load.

Of course, over-penetration is a concern, just as missed shots are a concern, thus rule #5- Be aware of your target and what lies beyond.

I too used to obsess over the 9mm vs .40 vs .45, and carried all three. I have now decided to default to 9mm, as I can stuff more rounds in a similarly sized pistol. Sure .45 > 9mm, but I consider 15 9mm > 8 .45.

One shot stops are not a reliable solution to situations that warrant deadly force, I plan on shooting my threat into submission or incapacitation, and I would prefer to have as many chances as I can before I need to reload.

But that’s just me.

8

I carry .45 autos, but that’s because I get issue ammo. Last year, I carried a 9mm and I didn’t feel undergunned. I use either Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot. Where you hit them is more important than what you hit them with. More practice is a good thing.

9

Hits count. If a 9mm lets you train more, the choice is obvious.

[rant]Most “guys” that obsess over this issue don’t shoot enough to make the cost difference meaningful.[/rant]

If you shoot enough to make the ammo cost a real issue, then train with a 9mm. In my case, I have a 9mm, 40S&W, and 357Sig all in the same platform. Recoil and muzzle blast change but, training is the same. YMMV

10

Train more.

If you can kill 3" and 6" dots with controlled pairs quickly when under pressure then you should be ok with 9mm.

For personal civilian defense I like a heavier bullet. I like 147gr HP in 9mm. I don’t know about terminal bullet design voodoo magic but I do know that having an entrance and exit wound will make a guy bleed out faster. I know the loss of RBC’s is fatal.

Really, I think a handgun is like a knife with better range. You may have to ‘stab’ the guy a few times with it.

11

All good comments.

When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:

As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense – it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
.

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

[i]Notes:
– Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

– Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT’s.[/i]

Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don’t want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

The keys are:

– Cultivate a warrior mindset
– Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
– Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
– Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

12

DocGKR,

Well said as always. Interesting to note that there was only one round added to the list of acceptable performing ammunition over the last couple years.

Spooky

13

DocGKR always has the dope for these things… and is tough to follow, all I can offer is some experience, take it for what it is worth.

I had a chance to work with the SBS some years back… I never once thought of those lads with their 9mm HPs as “under gunned”.

As for handgun terminal ballistics, it is really a crap shoot… no matter what “should” happen. I saw a guy take a 25ACP in the back one night and he was DRT, yet I seen a dude take two 10mm to the chest and run around till he bled out. Had a young, fit man die en route from a small caliber wound to the thigh, lodged in the muscle, no bleeding, really just a flesh wound… guess he figured as he was shot and all, that he needed to die.

As GKR pointed out, there are a bunch of cartridge and bullet combinations that are “capable” – and we know from the discussions about 1911s, tupperguns and even wheel guns, that there are a lot of pistols that are perfectly “capable”.

That leaves the variable that no one wants to deal with, the shooter. We all know Rule Number One: Have a Gun.

So pick the pistol/cartridge combo that you like and are comfortable with… the one that feels good, points and shoots well, that you can afford and will practice and become proficient with. The combination that will make you “capable”.

I have yet to see a would be bad guy that would be scared off by his potential victim’s threat of a lay-a-way receipt for a three thousand dollar custom pistol – or the victim stating that he “has a gun”, but left it at home, cause he is not comfortable carrying it.

At the same time… I don’t know of many bad guys, who - when confronted with an armed response - will say “whoa there… don’t you know nine out of ten internet keyboard commandos say that they would not use that pistol/caliber combination?”

Anyway… I am off the soap box now…

Lots of good advice on M4C to help you pick a pistol, cartridge, support gear and training – and at least when you say what you got, you probably won’t get “oh noes!!11 that gun is teh suck d00d!!111!! u should get what i got cause i got one and i got it cause i posted a poll and asked every1 what i should get” :rolleyes:

14

This thread should get tacked.

Thanks GKR and KLD!

15

Blake, if cheaper 9mm ammo means you’re going to practice with it more than the .45, then I am all for you getting an M&P9.

If time and funds allow, I can guarantee you’ll pick up the .45 too :wink:

16

These are some good responses, which I am looking for. I didn’t want this to sound like I’m just getting in to training, or trying to figure my first buy. I have and shoot the hell both out of a Nighthawk 1911, and a Glock 17. I’m just thinking of picking up my 9mm usuage, because of the significant cost advantage. Not necessary going exclusive 9mm, but dedicating a much larger percentage of my rounds down range. When you talk about several thousand rounds per year, the cost adds up. That was why the question came to my mind when trying to decide which MP I was gonna buy.

17

Amen.

Handguns are intensely personal weapons and one should choose the reliable, service quality handgun that works best for their particular needs. If, for instance, you shoot a Glock 19 naturally and find it easy to get excellent accuracy at speed and under stress with it, you would be foolish to carry a 1911 that you don’t shoot as well just to get the bigger bullet.

Similarly, if you have a good reliable 1911 and you shoot it naturally you would be foolish to trade it in for a Glock 19 that you don’t shoot as well just to get more capacity.

After reliability, the next most important feature of a handgun in my mind is the accuracy you can get out of it. If there is a design or pattern of handgun in a particular caliber that just seems to work naturally for you and is easy to get good hits with under stress, stick with that weapon and drive on.

Personally the weapons I shoot the most naturally are the 1911 and the M&P in 9mm. (I shoot the 1911 better, but I also get excellent natural performance from my Burwell customized M&P) These options, however, might not be ideal for you. My friend Hawkeye, for instance, has trouble getting the grip safety on 1911 pattern pistols de-activated under stress, and thus found other options to work better for his particular needs. He seems quite happy with the M&Ps he has acquired recently, as have a lot of very knowledgeable people on this site and others…even dedicated Glock fans. Personally I liked my M&P in 9mm so much I bought an M&P 9C and an M&P 45 that I plan to have worked on as well…

The data that DocGKR posted tells you essentially that caliber selection is of tertiary concern thanks to the excellent loads out there in all the common service calibers. There are differences in performance and different caliber and cartridge combos offer different levels of performance through intermediate barriers and the like, but anything off of the list DocGKR provided is verified good-to-go for self defense purposes…Thus the most important thing is to pick the platform and caliber combo that works best for you and train, train, train.

Finding the combo that works best for you, however, can be an ordeal. It took dozens of handguns (that’s not exaggeration…I have over two dozen handguns at the moment, and I’ve sold off several to get it that low…) and lots of time training to come up with what works best for me. If you have buddies who own a variety of handguns try to get some trigger time with them and do some drills to test out how you perform with them. If there is a range near you that offers rental services, take advantage of that and spend some trigger time behind a variety of weapons. Attending good formal training is also a great way to find out what works for you and what doesn’t…and if you see that someone brought a weapon that works pretty good for them in training and you’d like to run some drills with it often you’ll find that the owner will be happy to let you give it a run.

Finding the setup that works best for you is more of an evolutionary process than a fixed point for many people, so don’t be surprised if you end up going through several phases.

18

Reloading will decrease your cost and allow you to train with your 45 more often. Tracy

19

I have been hitting all the local gun shops lately to see what they have in stock for an AK 47… Only thing I have found is a few WASR10’s…

Anyway one of the shops has a great price on the M&P’s, first time I have handled one of these.

I was extremely impressed on how it felt, so much so I was tempted to take one home.

But all they had in stock was a compact 9mm and a .40 S&W.
The 40 round seems to pack quite a punch. The M&P 40 holds 15+1 just 2 rounds short of the 9.

How do you guys feel about the 40 S&W round?.

20

I like the .40. I own and carry .40’s often. I carried a Glock 22 on duty and a 27 a backup. I still carry the 27 on my ankle or on my hip or in a pocket holster often. Never had a problem with either. My dept has had no problems with the .40S&W in shootings. I think they are a decent performer and a reasonable compromise between 9mm and .45. That being said I prefer .45 but wouldn’t feel bad with 9mm either. I do think that .40 is a bit snappier than 9mm and with modern bullet design I don’t know that the sharper recoil really nets you any real gain, as would appear to be reinforced by Doc’s graphic above. As has been mentioned above the 9mm will probably be the cheapest to shoot, followed by the .40 and then the .45. Get whichever you think will fit you best as I think all three rounds are good performers and haven’t heard that any one model of M&P to be any more or less reliable than any other. Good luck and enjoy whichever you decide on and I look forward to pics of your new purchase!

-RD62