H&K having money problems.

General General Discussion
21

Well, whose fault is that?

Look, I’m not ragging on H&K’s products, they are a fantastic manufacturer. But, in the end, if you base your business model on producing military arms for government contracts, you shouldn’t be surprised when your bottom line starts drying up in times of government spending restraint. The war on terror has been a boon to the firearms industry in a lot of ways, but everyone knew it wouldn’t last forever. The 2008 economic downturn should have been a first hint that they needed to start looking into new product lines and sources of easy revenue.

Teaming up with someone established stateside already is one way to do that. Building factories in CONUS is another. Finding ways to reduce costs of products to compete with the likes of Glock and Smith and Wesson is another. The P30 is a fantastic pistol, but from a cost-benefit standpoint, does it do anything THAT much better than the Glock/M&P/PPQ that have much lower price tags? Not to mention the differences in aftermarket support, spare parts location, and customer service angles.

The fact that H&K is set up with a different business model is irrelevant. Their business model is completely within their control, and they chose not to modernize it when everyone else did.

22

Then it sounds like they have a bad business model. And that is why they are having problems. In business you adapt to changing market conditions or you die.

You cannot ignore the worlds largest small arms market (the US), especially if your company is in the small arms business. Not to mention the US market is becoming increasingly savvy and demanding higher quality equipment. The days of offering your MILSPEC equipment to one group of buyers and offering your cheap shit to everyone else is pretty much at an end. I am not sure if Sig has figured it out yet either.

Companies like Toyota build cars and trucks in the US because it is cheaper to do it this way. H&K could take a lesson. If they cannot import their expensive products then they should open a factory in the US and move whole hog into offering quality products to the US civilian and LEO market.

23

Nevermind the XM8. They could have made anything in that plant and they could have had the machinery built in the US (or Japan or…). They could have made HK45s, P30s, magazines for both, a little single-stack, polymer-frame 380 or 9mm (or both - imagine a polymer-frame P7!). They could have made the HK416 or an SL8 variant that more closely resembles the G36 (or just a good, old-fashioned SAO G36). They could have made the USC/UMP (whose only market is going to be the US when it’s in 45, anyway) and roller-block 9mms, 40s, and 10mms…

And yet they chose not to. While SiG found ways around both Swiss and German export laws to get us 551s and 553s.

If they can find the capital and remove their collective cranium from their collective rectum, they can still choose to. But I’m not going to hold my breath.

24

Obviously, they need to make a US-made AK. But noooooooooo! :wink:

25

They can call it an… [i]HK-47.

:cool:

yeee-ah![/i]

26

HK is well known for making excellent fire arms and questionable (some would say poor…) business decisions. Some of those decisions appear to be biting them in the ass.

27

I’m actually well aware of those laws. SIG has it even worse which is why they had to partner with JP Sauer in Germany (Sis/Sauer) in order to sell their handguns to the US given their strict neutrality laws.

If you think HK had difficulty over the years with the 41/91 series (and they had even bigger problems with the civie versions of the G3 domestically) as a rifle for export you should see what SIG had to go through with the 550/551 series.

This is why SIG established a US base of operation and production. Unfortunately they started making shit.

28

I think you need to do some research about HK, because all of your points are off.

HK DOES make the ALL of the pistols you mentioned above, minus the P7, in the US. The P7 CANNOT have a polymer frame due to the fixed barrel. The smaller caliber handguns don’t sell enough to justify the cost whatsoever. It doesn’t make sense for them to bring manufacturing of .380’s over here because the entire market for smaller calibers is focused on cost and size. Who’s going to pay $6-700 for a HK when you can get a Walther for $399? HK only makes military-grade weaponry - subcompact buyers are n’t going to spend that kind of money on one.

HK DOES make the civilian-version of the 416 domestically.

The only valid point your bought up was the that the G36 isn’t made as a G36, yet the reason for that is because no one was interested in buying an SL8, even when they were $1200. An SL8 IS a semi-auto G36 - mechanically it’s identical. It didn’t make sense for HK to spend $500k+ to produce an aesthetic clone of the G36 when they could produce a mechanically identical version with a more traditional stock in Germany.

Also, Sig is greatly commercialized - their product lines are so expansive that they can absorb costs with exporting production. The downside is that their QC and reputation is now a joke. It’s simply a different business model.

The irony here is that no one on this board considers any of the new offerings from Sig as quality or hard-use weapons.

I’m not defending H&K, I’m just saying no one seems to understand what’s actually going on.

Also, the original linked article is very speculative. If you look at the last several decades, H&K has ALWAYS been in “financial trouble.” They’ve posted a net loss while expanding the company. It’s not uncommon.

The article only states that debts outweigh their holdings-" - that doesn’t mean much at all and could change with one simple contract. Also notice that the article doesn’t state the net worth of H&K. I suspect it’s just an attempt to get some traffic on an otherwise unimportant article.

29

Pretty sure the only pistol they make in the US is the HK45 and HK45C.

Which leaves the P30, P2000, Mk23, USP, USPc, USP45…

The P7 CANNOT have a polymer frame due to the fixed barrel.

More likely it cannot have a polymer frame because of the gas-delayed blowback operating system.

Then you take a squeeze-cocking mechanism and stick it in a traditional Browning short-recoil operated single-stack auto. It ain’t rocket science.

The smaller caliber handguns don’t sell enough to justify the cost whatsoever. It doesn’t make sense for them to bring manufacturing of .380’s over here because the entire market for smaller calibers is focused on cost and size. Who’s going to pay $6-700 for a HK when you can get a Walther for $399? HK only makes military-grade weaponry - subcompact buyers are n’t going to spend that kind of money on one.

People pay $600-700 for Kahr’s little 380. For Kimber’s 380. For SiG’s 380.

And the P2000SK is totally standard issue for militaries the world-over, right?

HK DOES make the civilian-version of the 416 domestically.

No, they make a short-bus version of the HK416.

The only valid point your bought up was the that the G36 isn’t made as a G36, yet the reason for that is because no one was interested in buying an SL8, even when they were $1200. An SL8 IS a semi-auto G36 - mechanically it’s identical. It didn’t make sense for HK to spend $500k+ to produce an aesthetic clone of the G36 when they could produce a mechanically identical version with a more traditional stock in Germany.

No one was (or is) interested in buying the SL8 because it wasn’t (and isn’t) a G36! If they had looked like G36s, they would have sold like hot cakes! They would still sell like hot cakes!

FFS, they don’t even import them into this country with a double-stack magazine well, something they do everywhere else. Including Canada.

Hell, we’re still waiting to see the much rumored striker-fired pistol they have supposedly been working on.

30

I think the question is “is it SMART to build a firearms factory in the US with its current political climate?”

31

I may be wrong about this, but HK could have produced the 416 (not the neutered MR556) at the plant in Georgia and then the issues with the KriegsWaffenKontrollGesetz issues would have been a non-issue.

I know we have discussed this here previously and that was the consensus. This may well have opened the doors for other HK models.

As I recall back in the day when the HK rifles were imported they were pretty big sellers. A new HK93 in 1986 would cost you around 650.00.

32

The answer it “YES.” Because America will always have an appetite for guns of some type. Even if they are neutered and dumbed down there will still be demand.

This is what makes the anti’s nuts. Americans believe they have a right to defend themselves and use guns in other shooting sports. So, they attack guns from every side - anti-hunting laws, range limitations, no CCW, SYG, everything. Despite everything they have tried over the years, gun sales remain reliably robust.

33

Ah, no, it is not the only one. Beretta Holdings overshadows Glock in US civilian sales by a gigantic margin.

Let’s see…Glock pistols vs…Beretta semi automatic shotguns, Beretta over/under shotguns, Beretta rifles, Beretta handguns, Sako rifles, Tikka rifles, Benelli semi automatic shotguns, Benelli pump shotguns, Benelli rifles, Franchi semi automatic shotguns, Franchi over/under shotguns, Franchi side by side shotguns, Burris Optics, Stoeger semi auto, pump, and side by side shotguns, Stoeger, air guns, and on, and on, and on.

34

Not to mention FNH.

FN semi auto shotguns, rifles, and handguns. FN bolt action rifles.

And then FN also runs Browning and Winchester.

FN also uses their domestic manufacturing centers to support many other manufacturers with various products, like hammer forged barrels.

If HK had made better business decisions, they could be partaking in this as well.

35

Uh huh. The changing political landscape makes me think no. Beretta has had ongoing problems since 1994, now even worse. Magpul, Colt, Remington, Stag…long list. Where would HK build their factory? All it takes is a liberal anti-gun president with a long pair of coattails and all of a sudden state legislatures all over the country change their makeup and start passing anti-gun legislation. I sure as hell would not want to build a gun factory in the US these days, especially if it was for a company that was as clueless about the American gun market as HK or Walther appear to be.

36

What kind of problems?

Outside of government contracts, handguns are a sideshow, literally, for Beretta compared to their civilian shotgun sales.

37

Cause it’s so hard to turn other self loading rifle into automatics?

Germany’s laws will not allow HK to export the same machinery they used to produce the XM8 as it was, meaning they’d first have to redesign the XM8 to allow for a semi-auto-only configuration, then produce machinery specifically for making a semi-auto XM8, and then get it over to the US.

You mean like they did for the roller lock guns, and the SL8? You mean like every other manufacturer does?

38

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/berettas-future-in-maryland-tied-to-states-gun-control-debate/2013/02/23/bcc56c62-7776-11e2-95e4-6148e45d7adb_story.html

There always seems to be a problem with Maryland…
Ugo Gussalli Beretta

39

Most other manufacturers aren’t based in Germany. HK’s export laws are specific to German legislature.

And no, the SL8/G36 could allow for simply a change in the trigger pack and a few other minor items, as did the HK93/94/5 series. The XM8 was built differently and could not be “unconverted” from a machine gun. This is all common info on HKPro.

40

The problem for HK is that they honestly didn’t do what Sig has done in the U.S. They are a decade to late. Once the AWB sunsetted, they should have invested heavily in the U.S. market, namely pistols. Granted it would have been hard to compete with Glock, but look at S&W’s M&P, even with all the troubles, people a re buying them in droves.

Better ergos and better trigger packages are no new thing, even in 2003-2004. Look at the Walther P99/P22. For as good as HK is, they could have come up with something like the P30, or brought the P2000 to a fullsize variant.

What they should do now is get into the emerging female shooters market. Instead of having most of their advertisement with black clad SWAT teams to lure in LE/Mil and Mall Ninja sales, they should be putting MORE women shooters on their catalogues. Look what Glock and Taurus have done. Glocks main running commercial is with a woman have her home broken into, and she stops the dude with her Glock 19.

The catch phrase could be simple: “In a World of Compromise, Some Mom’s Don’t.”

Next, they need to figure out how to market to the lower-middle class without sacrificing their QC, and do so to keep things in house, as it should be.

They should also get with Merkil and tell her that the laws on the books is what is killing them. Have them point out that other Foreign firearms companies are doing very well in America and they aren’t. Albeit, I would make the investment slow, but they needed to start ten years again. Hence, they need to go after the self-defense market and hold out on rifles.