Growing divide between military and civilians?

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/05/25/us-military-and-civilians-are-increasingly-divided.html?ESRC=army.nl

I just don’t know what to say. Maybe I’m from a different generation, but these college-aged pukes they mention can go f**k themselves. Yeah yeah, freedom of speech and all.

I was born one year after the “Baby Boom” officially ended. I grew up ALWAYS holding the military in high regard and with great respect. My grandfather was a WWII USMC vet and he was the closest grandparent to me personally. I spent 4 years active and 3 in the NG so I walked the walk (got lucky as it was during mostly peaceful times).

I just don’t understand but it makes me angry…

So you are David Zucchino of the LA Times, you make your living writing and you need to sell what you write on a regular basis to keep making that living. So you choose a subject and set out to write the story, most of the time the way you, the writer, see it.

The story lays out some statistics that are kind of misleading - for example - ‘While the U.S. waged a war in Vietnam 50 years ago with 2.7 million men conscripted from every segment of society’ - while that is true, every segment of society was represented, the upper middle class and the wealthy were dramatically under represented - thanks to the system of deferments that favored them. And it was actually around 9,000,000 serving during the Viet Nam War, 2.7 is the number that set foot on the ground. That 11-year war was fought by a large number draftees who did two years of service and then got out. About 1 in every 10 draft/military aged man served in the conflict.

VN was a polarizing war, just as is the GWOT. The difference is that the draftee during VN only served once, so there was a constant churn of troops, with each draftee serving a 12 to 13 month tour. Contrast the professional, all-volunteer Armed Forces of today. They didn’t reinstitute the draft, which led to a much more professional and capable force doing the fighting, but it also exposed many of you to repeated trips to the sandbox.

As a result not as many families had/have skin in the game, thus the disconnect.

I reckon if the Chickenhawks had reinstituted the draft for the GWOT we would have seen some protests that made those of the 60’s look like tea parties.

The fact is that the way we wage war has changed - we didn’t have to raise an Army from nothing, we had the all volunteer force.

[i]Opinion polls consistently find that the military is the most trusted American institution. A Gallup poll last June found that 74 percent of more than 1,000 Americans surveyed had “a great deal” or “quite a lot” of confidence in the military – versus 58% in 1975, at the close of the Vietnam era.

Yet a 2011 Pew Research Center study titled “The Military-Civilian Gap” found that only a quarter of civilians who had no family ties to the military followed war news closely. Half said the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan made little difference in their lives, and half said they were not worth fighting.[/i]

I was in junior high and high school during the VN War, in Lincoln, Nebraska we didn’t follow the war that closely, there wasn’t near the coverage, so I’m not so sure that 1/4 of the population paying attention was far off. (FWIW, in 1972, two weeks after HS graduation, my butt was at MCRD San Diego getting trained up to kill a commie for mommy) In WWII, if our troops got beat there was a slight possibility that America would face an enemy invasion. I don’t think anyone really thought Ho was going to bring the fight to our shores. Same today.

Most people, myself included, would rather live in a world where no armies are needed. Of course that ain’t going to happen in our lives.

They hate us cause they ain’t us. :cool:

No…

Not sure if you are an advocate of the draft or think it would be a good thing, but I personally wouldn’t want to make those “professional soldiers” have to depend upon people who at best are there against their will and at worst doing everything they can to undermine anyone or anything.

As for the article being largely the opinion of the writer, I think that is mostly the case. I think the 60s were much worse when it came to a divide between the military and the civilian population. Drug addled hippies and communist sympathizers viewed them as baby killers. Much of the rest of the country felt Vietnam veterans failed in their efforts. Both groups contributed to a sense of shame associated with those who served.

Probably the worst thing this country has done to it’s veterans since the Bonus Army.

There are a lot of people who criticize the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I think most of the population is supportive of those who served.

Agreed. And let’s not attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. A lot of the “anti-military” folks are more “wtf is a Marine?” And less “you’re a baby killer”

I don’t particularly feel a connection to most who haven’t served. I entered as a teenager and exited as I was turning 40, those were some good years and they shaped my life.
I don’t see a lot of discipline or direction from many of my civilian counterparts, nor do I understand many of their viewpoints on things as valid. I don’t disrespect them, but it is kind of hard for me to listen to a sob story from someone who hasn’t seen something outside of their own county let alone their country.
Hearing how “tough” most of them have had it makes me want to buy them a one way ticket to some third world shi* hole so they have a little better comparison about just what “tough” really is.
I have met some great friends that I will have undying respect for while serving, as a civilian, eh,…not so many.
It really may be the quality of person they were before they joined, military service just tuned the frequency a bit higher.

I agree, that people are supportive of the troops, pretty equally divided between those who are sincerely supportive, and those who are supportive because that is what the cool kids are doing.

I am not so much a supporter of the draft as I am universal conscription into some form of government service, be it military, medical, disaster relief or public works.

Several of my current friends were drafted during the VN era. They relate that they were pretty focused on returning whole and did the job. We did win WWII with a ‘new’ armed forces, comprised of a higher percentage of draftees than the VN war.

I will agree that people in general are supportive. I have watched that “support” evolve however. I will speak only to my own experience. When I rotated back at the end of Anaconda, the amount of support and well wishing was overwhelming. Coming back from Iraq (again, early stages) the unconditional support was replaced with a range of folks expressing something like “I support our troops, but not the war” to questions of “why are you still in doing what you do knowing what we all know” and the ever popular “aren’t you ashamed?” – all followed with the “I support our troops though”. I still get an awful lot of “thank you for your service” a lot more than the negative comments however.

This comment is on point. I drink coffee with a group of retired guys a few times per week and those that did not serve in the military show a subtle amount of jealous animosity to those of us who did serve.

I did not serve, but I support those who did 100% and hold no animosity or jealousy towards Veterans.

No, that comment is idiotic.

That comment was supposed to be slightly funny. Hence the shaded smiley at the end.

But since we are being all serious I also feel like sometimes I don’t connect as well with someone who hasn’t served. Even friends I went to high school with and was close with then. Sometimes I feel like there is a mixture of jealousy/regret in not joining/not understanding etc. Of course Alex Jawnes thinks we are taking over and POTUS thinks we are the next big terror threat! :confused:

Ok. Tone is tough at times through text. Cool guy shades emoticon is not indicative of jest or sarcasm either.

I’m actually surprised at the lack of people in uniforms in airports, are more travelling in civilian clothes or something? 40 flights this year and I think I saw one person in BDUs. I never see officers.

I thought the article was interesting in how it seemed to dis the Reserves. Last three presidents didn’t serve ACTIVE military, as if W and Clinton had the same experience. The Stanford girl going reserve instead of active duty. I know the difference in level of commitment, but I had an acquaintance that had the military pay for his Med School, graduated right around 9/11, was an ER doc and never had to serve outside the US. How in the heck do you do that? It seems not only that a small fraction of civilians serve, but only a subset of the military ends up doing multiple tours.

What is the solution?

And what happens when the drones/robots do most of the fighting as some forecast?

I think another thing is that it’s cool to hate America among the younger crowd. When you talk about how bad ISIS is, or what the Nazis did, you’ll get a quick response from most young people about how it is no worse than what we did to the Native Americans, Japanese, blacks, Iraqis, etc., and how they don’t support anyone because everybody sucks. Except them of course. They aren’t part of the problem.

They don’t care about anybody but themselves, and they look down on people who aren’t apathetic as stupid. The idea of putting one’s life on the line for anyone or anything is seen is a waste of time. As such, in their eyes, if you join the military, it can only mean that you’re a brainwashed sheep or a total psychopath.

Was it .mil that paid or .gov? Any chance he was involved with the U.S. Public health Service? They have the National Health Services Corps (NHSC) which places doctors in under served areas, and they also have Commissioned Officers of the USPHS.

Or are you just remarking that you thought it unusual he was in the military and didn’t go overseas?

By the way, I’d like to hang with GW, I think he is a nice guy, but if you don’t think he was dodging the draft at the Fort Worth Flying Club just as much as Clinton was, well…

I wasn’t in the military. I wanted to join, but I had a problem with authority and knew it wasn’t for me.

I have the utmost respect for the GOOD men and women who served. I Say “good” becuSe I have met a few pieces of shit who just so happened to have served and their was nothing other than the military service to respect about them. Bad apples.

Some of my closest friends and family are current or former military and we get along very well. Many have mentioned to me that I am one of the few non military people that they get along with and understand them.

I’m constantly asked by people if I served, when I tell them I didn’t they are surprised. Guess I’m just that type of dude, but never actually served.

Every time I see an older gentlemen with a Korea or Vietnam hat on I shake their hand and thank them for their service. Usually it turns into a beer or two and a lot of good conversation.

I know many younger guys who want to join and are very good people who respect military members/vets.

Their are quite a few morons out there who hate the military and service members- it’s indoctrination by the progressives plain and simple.

Some of the BS I had to endure from professors and classmates in college was disgusting. Liberal minded people don’t all necessarily hate the military/members; but I find all the retards who do have this negative stigma just so happen to be self proclaimed liberals, democrats, progressives, socialists, etc.

I have yet to meet a conservative, republican or libertarian who held this negative stigma. Met some who didn’t have much of an opinion one way or the other.

Some people just mindlessly listen to and accept the BS they are spoon fed; sadly more and more people do with each day. But that’s a symptom of a larger problem that lies deeply within our Federal Govt, public school system, media- all working together to eviscerate the core values and fundamental framework of America.

Really? I always saw Army dudes flying around. Do they even own any other articles of clothing?

You’ll never seen Marines because
A) we aren’t allowed to wear cammies off base
B) everything else is too damn uncomfortable
C) why the hell would we wear a uniform when we can wear civilian attire and get away with not shaving?

People who wear uniforms at the airport are dumb.

I travel almost monthly and we make it a point to NOT look military (which is impossible), no camo carry ons or luggage, no velcro hats, etc…

EDIT- And what Eurodriver said. Especially since it’s probably burning into my weekend to be traveling, so damnit Ima be comfy.