good point… wouldn’t literally knock em down, but i was under the impression that getting shot with a centerfire handgun round even with a vest on was very unpleasant.
the cops at the hollywood shooting were armed with handguns and shotguns only correct?
"elieve that Ken’s point is that for 80-90% of what a lot of SWAT does day to day the MP5 works pretty well. "
Exactly. And it might be closer to 95-98%
Not to mention what a civilian conducting home defense might need.
No, it is an easy shooting round. I have done full mag dumps with the MP5/10 with one hand and it is not hard to control. 9mm is even easier.
+1
You always come up with scenrarios where any gun is NOT the best choice.
“the cops at the hollywood shooting were armed with handguns and shotguns only correct?”
The guys from Metro who ended the fight were actually armed with AR15’s…
Maybe things are different elsewhere in the country, but for greater than 50% of the SWAT call-outs around here, a carbine is a far better choice than an SMG.
If you have a reason to shoot 4 rounds, you have a reason to shoot 10 or 20 or 30 rounds
Lethality: For a very long time, a lot of well respected teams were doing just fine permanently killing people with MP5s. Having said that, I doubt anyone would argue that the 9mm round from a subgun has the same lethality as a properly selected 5.56mm round.
Body armor: At the ranges for which the MP5 is really intended, rapid accurate head shots are not much of a challenge… see how MP7s are being used currently OCONUS as further evolution of that concept. But realizing the BG has armor and switching to head shots (if you’re not just making them routinely) takes more time than just shooting to the chest and not worrying about soft armor. As plates become more commonplace among evildoers, that equation might shift.
Range: Again, cannot argue that the 5.56mm is superior here.
Plusses in favor of the MP5 are maneuverability, size (especially suppressed), loudness (especially suppressed), and durability.
There are roles for which the MP5 is superior and roles for which the M4 and its ilk are superior. There’s no rule that says every single guy on scene at a call out needs to have the exact same primary.
The MP5SD is a terrible choice for anything but fun at the range.
Personally, if I was faced with a situation that I can address with either the MP5 or AR15, I’d still choose the AR15. The reality is the AR15 can handle situations that the MP5 is suited for; but the same cannot be said of the MP5 for situations that the AR15 can handle.
A well-informed source tels me that after the Mogadishu incident of “Blackhawk Down” fame, most of the guys of the 160th SOAR ditched their MP5s for M4s both for effectiveness and compatibility with the rest of the military.
All our local SWAT team ditched their MP5s for M4s a half-dozen years ago because: (a) METT-T - some of our schools have hallways that are too long for the MP5, pistol, or the shotgun and (b) the customer HK provided was inadequate (actually, very poor - so poor that one agency recently replaced their HK USP .45s with Glock 21SFs). YMMV.
Todd, was the above quote a typo? If not, please expand. 
Totally a typo. Fixed it in the original. Thanks for catching it!
What is it about the SD that makes it less than desirable for swat callouts? Bear in mind I have never handled nor seen an MP5 of any iteration in real life.
mp-5… what’s to like?
Unergonomic dive weight
-safety cannot be flinged off & on in the manner new carbines & PDW’s can… so need be run hot off safe
-most users go dry and figure it out with an loud useless hammer drop on this low recoil non bolt lock back weapon
-reload cycle is very slow
-stock is either to long or to short for modern shooting techniques
-trigger blows
-heavy and bulky compared to true PDW’s
-not gadget friendly… format not optimized for IR/vis laser and lights
-pitiful terminal ballistics for the size/weight
-unable to rapidly switch from expanding to penetrating, combo of slow reload and anemic 9mm round performance/selection
-HK customer service blows… keeping a fleet of them up can be trying… ask institutional users
I imagine the majority of SWAT task could be accomplished with a ballistic shield and a hatchet… but their are certainly more elegant solutions
The MP5SD barrel is ported to reduce the velocity of 115gr ball to subsonic.
There is no reason LE should use 115gr ball, much less at reduced velocity. LE use that requires subsonic stealth seems a bit of a stretch, especially with reduced terminal performance trade off.
The big reason is that factory 147gr HP ammo is subsonic in a standard barrel, AND designed for terminal performance at that velocity. So you can have quiet and terminal performance.
What Dano said. Great post.
The calculus is a little different for non-LE folks when one considers the cost of a 5.56mm carbine or SBR versus an MP5.
I think Mr. Hackathorn’s article makes a good argument for downplaying some of the supposed justifications for switching from the MP5 to the M4 or SBR type platforms. I think he overplays the difference in size - the picture shows a 14.5" or 16" carbine with a suppressor, versus a MP5 without a suppressor and with a retractable stock, retracted. Not a fair comparison. The difference between a 10.5" carbine and a MP5 with a fixed stock is minimal.
He also notes the danger of 5.56 penetrating soft armor. Of course, this is also an advantage depending on what you are facing.
Aside from cost, I’m not real fond of the MP5 in terms of ergonomics (safety) and manual of arms (reloading an empty gun).
How does it compare to the KAC 6x35mm?
That is indeed an unhelpful photo. Extend the stock on the MP5 and add a suppressor, and the guns are nearly the same length.
He also notes the danger of 5.56 penetrating soft armor. Of course, this is also an advantage depending on what you are facing.
What I gathered from that portion of the article is that the MP5 is a safer choice, because cops have a tendency to shoot other cops. Gosh, how about we don’t do that?
(And while we’re at it, how about we help accomplish that by getting serious about NDs, too. Really serious. Like loss of pay. Time off. No more SWAT. Lose your G-ride. Being the meter-maid.)
Another thought: Wasn’t it the NTOA (or maybe ITEMS) that crunched the data on ops injuries and OISs, and found that when cops shoot other cops in the tactical environment, it was mostly lower extremity injuries, where armor would not play a role anyway? That would seem to negate the comparative safety margin of the HK a bit.
From the article:
However, the most important drawback to the M4 is the often overlooked fact that if one of the team members is armed with a .223, there is at least one weapon present that can penetrate most police body armor. Accidents happen, and the level of injuries related to friendly fire in police shoot-outs is often a hidden statistic. The Emergency Services Unit (ESU) of the NYPD, easily the team with the most number of callouts in the nation, still issues MP5s. Why? As one team leader said, “We don’t want to kill one of our own guys. An M4 can do that, but an MP5 can’t.”
In addition, the instructional norm with the HK was to have troop run with the safety off rather than on when the gun was or about to be in play. The norm is the opposite with the M16/AR type, as the safety is easily accessible from the firing grip for the majority of shooters. Those running ARs safety off seem to be folks that transitioned from the HK. This difference would seem to be helpful as well.
HA! I’ve been screaming that in my head, but I didn’t want to take us there.