For those who’s hobby it is to attend training (anyone unless work pays 100% for everything):
Do you have any clear cut goals?
Short and long term plans on how to get there?
How do you rate yourself? What do use to rate people who does “defensive shooting” as a hobby.
Clear cut, not really. Carbine has gotten boring over the past year and a half or so, and since I’m a civy, it really has little to no point unless the world ends. My focus over the past year has been pistol shooting because I find it extremely practical (carry everyday) and quite fun. Even something as simple as improving my draw (AIWB) can bring me quite a bit of fun. I guess my goal is to “win the fight”. Next I need to learn some fighting discipline as well as shoothouse.
This next year I plan on taking a shoothouse course, ECQC, as well as take martial arts classes (looks like BJJ).
On the pure hobby side of things I would love to do some sort of competitive pistol shooting, but it looks like there are no competitions for what I want to do, so I just do drills I’ve learned.
The rating I give myself realistically is an 8/10 (civilian CCW). Internet rating 3/10.
I don’t judge others. People just need to be realistic with themselves (goes both ways).
This is like golf, except it can save lives. My ‘goals’, like a golfer’s, are assorted specifics revolving around getting better. Better draw speed. Better accuracy. Better split times. Better transitions.
I rate myself as a learner. Probably intermediate by internet standards.
The over arching theme is to improve in ways likely to be relevant in the worst of situations.
I like to use gun games as way to keep up with progress. Not perfect, but fun way to get out and shoot in different scenarios/situations/environments. Shooting drills, using timer, and keeping up with time is prob. best bet. But IDPA, 3-gun, etc. are lot of fun. Shooting against people better than you will force you to rise to challenge level. As far as rating myself- better than some, worst than others. I’m in it for the kicks!
But with golf, you play a round, see what you need to work on, practice shortcomings, play another round, see tangible results (or not). After a while you get a feel for your game and what practice works for you and what’s a waste of time.
If your job entails getting into actual real life shoot outs this methodology of improving could turn out badly
I take my golf seriously, shooting is a hobby. As I’ve never been in a shootout, I’ve no clue if the drills I do are actually improving my skills or not.
Ive taken a couple classes, read a bunch on this site, watch a ton of YouTube training vids and try to copy ideas for when I shoot. But I’m like the guys at the driving range(who I make fun of BTW) who have the latest and greatest clubs, can rattle off swing mechanics terminology better than hank Haney, yet still shoot in the 90s every round. I’m sure some vets with real combat experience would laugh at me trying to do the 1-5 drill. Just as I laugh at the 20 year old kids who think they’re gonna beat me just because they out drive me by 100yds.
My dream golf buddy is a SOF type that wants to swap some shooting training in trade for my short-game mastery.
BTW. I’m a 3HC near JBLM. if anyone wants to trade their shooting knowledge for some golf lessons I’m game.
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I’m glad you guys went this way.
I don’t know much about golf handicap because golf to me is just something you do between and during beers but, it’s a objective rating based off the course slope and what a pro would score kinda, right?
Same thing with shooting sports. In IPSC, everyone is chasing 100%,making new 100%'s and going after match wins. It’s pretty well documented how to get there, you just have to be willing to do the work(dryfire)and burn the rounds.
So how do you begin to do this with defensive shooting intelligently without just spending $ on ammo and chasing goals without know where the 100%'s are?
Control the known variables. You will be gassed and freaking out, focus on physical stressors and making those solid times on drills under duress. Your ex-mil right? You may not need too…That’s what I’ve done anyway as a civ. I reached a place where I know my pistol shooting will be miles ahead of 99% of the people who would attack me…but where will my mind be, my body conditioning? That’s where I focus. Pistol, open hand/knife, ground only…done with carbine like other poster. That’s all I know to do short of patrolling the streets like Bronson testing myself, I can’t do that due to my high deductible.
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I’ve noticed that most look at it as a shooting thing. Defending yourself with or without a firearm isn’t so much about shooting. It’s about fighting. People could stand to start doing more reactionary drills. Learning to stress themselves while shooting and adding in additional task to distract them. Learn to continue the thinking process instead of freeze up. Less about the gun and more about the “Holy shit! What’s going on?” Simply put, the world needs more blue guns.
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Lets be friends.
The root word in “Gunfight” is “fight”. Accuracy, mastery of the basics, and manipulations drilled into the subconscious are all absolutely essential, but all amount to nothing if you don’t have a fighting or warrior spirit that you can tap into when the time is right. The converse is also true.
If you’re looking to prepare for a self defense scenario, and you already have a very solid marksmanship and manipulations foundation, I’d look more into the tactics/low light/FoF/combatives side of the house. We have a hard time going to those places because they’re often alien to us, or they’re our weakest points. Of course, just like switching to steel targets from paper ones, we have to come back and revisit and evaluate our fundamentals. Gauging marksmanship, both raw and applied under stress, is still important. Thats why its important to keep standards and monitor performance.
Required reading: http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/05/training-balance-and-how-good-is-good.html
Sadmin’s also right; the more you can do to experience stress, being physically exhausted, being faced with ambiguous scenarios or multiple options, the better off you will be, as long as you can consistently apply the basics under those conditions. Which is why we train. Your encounter may be more stressful than anything you experience in training, but all that training still helps a lot.
That’s the million dollar question: how good is good enough?
Good thread.
Even tho I’m not sure you’ll find a reasonable person mindful in the topic who would disagree, this line has been made clique, and even an excuse for some people to reason their way out of being objectively skilled. It even turned into another -my tactical branding is better then yours- contest with who can be the most warfyghterest mindset master
we have been developing it more and more and more ever since. I will tell you and anyone on earth that the gunfighting system taught at the XXXXXX XXXXXXX is by far the best system to keep you alive in a gunfight, and to help you kill your enemy at the same time.
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Mindset is easy. It costs nothing. You can “dryfire” mindset anytime you are awake. No part is more important than any other.
It’s a great question. I’ve spent A LOT of money (and a fair bit of time) on training over the past 3 years. I don’t know how precisely I’ve formulated my goals, because I don’t know exactly the situation in which they’ll be needed. It’s an unending quest to some degree, but since I don’t do this for a living, I’ve sort of tapered off at this point.
I would say the biggest mistake I’ve made (and continue to make to some extent) is to attend class after class without practicing the skills after to ingrain them. I’ve taken Insights Intensive Handgun Skills twice and each time at the end of the class I was shooting the best I ever had. Then I just kind of returned to my baseline which is a basic level of competence but not all that great. I had all the drills and knowledge to improve dramatically on my own, but failed to carve out the time to achieve that outcome.
I took Pat McNamara’s TAPS awhile back and while it was fun and I did learn (both techniques and my own shortcomings) I didn’t feel it measurably improved my abilities. It’s probably the last pure gun handling class I’ll take. To really improve in that area, I simply need to practice more. The only classes I think I’ll really go for in the future are the more scenario based ones which involves FOF. Probably will do ECQC a second time, try to do AMIS and VCAST.
The two or three most valuable classes I’ve done IMO were ECQC and Insights Street & Vehicle Tactics I & II. They focused on more holistic skills than just gun handling which feels like only a minor part of the equation after you’ve done a few scenarios. In fact, Greg Hamilton made an interesting comment during S&V II saying ‘You will probably come away from this class realizing that you dno’t need to take any more gun handling classes, but should sign up for an improv acting class’
In terms of standards, I mostly rate myself via the Insights standards which seem as good as any. You can of course pick your own, but if you’re talking about shooting, I think having a set of objective, quantitive measures is vital. For the broader stuff, I don’t know how to measure yourself beyond doing scenario-based FOF and just taking each one as a learning experience. I have learned more from my failures in those than anything else.
It’s pretty straight forward. There are folks out there that train people to go out and make the world a safer place. You go to those people and get training from them, they will have goals for you to reach and they will show you how to get there. The only plan you need is a plan to seek those people and stay out of the Tactical Tourist Traps!
I think part of the problem for some when it comes to mindset is that they want answers from others on how to get it. People just need to learn for themselves that stress isn’t the end of the world. Grow a set of mental balls and just deal with it when it comes to receiving a boat load of information. Learn to focus on what’s important and just make a damn decision. One thing that could help some is to go spin out in an icy parking lot and just learn to calmly recover and continue straight. When people panic in said situation they either freeze up, panic or over react and over steer. Calmly focus on the situation and figure out what’s happening. Think about what you need to do to correct it and then apply it. Just learn to process information under stress.
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Agreed with above
Tough part is preparing or managing the different levels/kinds of stress and how the body reacts.
If I sprint 100 yards and try to shoot, the heart may be racing but my hands aren’t shaky like when my boss is lecturing me.
A 3’ putt is easy right? What about when $5 and some pride are on the line? $1M and fame on the PGA?
Impossible to replicate the stresses incurred on the 2-way range which doesn’t mean all training is meaningless. you try to get to a level of proficiency, which breeds confidence, which I sincerely hope will transfer over to any situation where my life is on the line.
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This post has a very “Gimme 20$ and jesus will save you” vibe.
What I’m getting towards is: how do we determine those goals and what are they based off of? How do I know when I’m “adequate” vs. “stellar”? There are various trainers who’ve compiled their own standards based off statistics, but those rarely make it outside of their training courses with the whole knowledge along with them. Yeah, I could find the Hack or the ST6 or Air Marshalls standards online and shoot them, but without really knowing what my score means when I’m done, I’m not getting the whole picture.
Goals are (should) be based off of a perceived shortcoming in our own skillset, and an idea of what improvement will bring to us. Goals are based largely on one’s particular envisioned scenario, occupation, etc. Goals are also based off of data obtained from previous encounters.
FBI/LEO shooting statistics are a good example of this. They paint a broad picture of likely or highly possible variables, from which one can establish a nebulous goal of “being better at low light shooting” or “focusing more on 7 yards and in”. These are fine first steps, but they only answer 1 part of the three part goal setting process:
1.Where am I going- that’s your “be better at low light”, broad brush, overall goal, or statement
2. How do I get there- for us, this is a no-brainer. Seek out instruction from a qualified person who has a course or subject matter expertise on the topic at hand.
3. How do I know when I’ve arrived- MIllion dollar question. See below.
How do I know when I’m “adequate” vs. “stellar”?
Depending on your goal, this can be somewhat unattainable. If you’re training for a higher score on a particular drill, then knowing what that score is, and how that score rates among other shooters can be attainable data. Now, determining what that score means in the “real world” is much harder to nail down.
If you’re training to be better prepared to defend yourself or others, keep training. There are so many variables that “good enough” may never be realized. The biggest variables are your reaction to true stress of a “fight or flight” encounter (which can be improved to an extent but still may not be known), and the skill/determination of your adversary, which you probably won’t know long enough in advance to train for.
“Today is the victory over yourself of yesterday. Tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.” -Miyamoto Musashi (I think)
I view “gun games” as a hobby (much like Golf). Sure there are professionals in both “sports” that can make a living at it, but these people are few and far between and I don’t have any interest in doing what they do for a living.
Training (with a firearm) is about winning a fight and should NEVER be viewed as a “hobby.” To win this fight, you must first have a switched on mind. Situational awareness, preparedness and willingness to do what is needed to come out alive. Then you get into tactics. This can be everything from how to properly clear a room (alone) to shooting out of and around vehicles to even knowing how to talk to people to avoid a confrontation all together! Lastly, your ability to manipulate the trigger to the rear and put a round on target. I list shooting last mainly because most LE and Civy gun fights are generally within 7yds and realistically 10ft! How good a shot do you need to be? Not very. This is why we see countless postings in the NRA mags where some 80yr kills or wounds a intruder (and they have never had any training other than an NRA Hunter Safety course)! Being mentally prepared and aware will keep you out of a lot of bad situations and is why I list it first in importance.
So to answer your question, I judge my “progress” in two ways. First is KNOWLEDGE gained form real world gunfighters. This is never ending, goal never achieved kind of thing as you can always grow in this area. The second way is if I am able to pass the shooting drills that these instructors have designed. If yes, then I am content with where I am (satisfied with my ability) and will move onto other areas that need improving (skills with a knife, physical fitness, etc).
YMMV.
C4
First two quotes to consider:
“This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win; there is no possible victory in defense, the sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.” John Steinbeck, The Acts of King Arthur and his Noble Knights
“In the end it is not about the hardware, it is about the software. Amateurs talk about hardware, or equipment, and professionals talk about software, or training and mental readiness.” David Grossman, forward to Training at the Speed of Life (Ken Murray)
Let me pontificate: in choosing how to train and what to train, keep these quotes in mind, be discerning.
The first thing needed for self-defense is situational awareness, software as it were, if you are aware of impending danger, you are already armed.
This is pretty close to the best thing I’ve ever read on situational awareness: http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm
This book should be in your library to augment what Tom Givens explains in the above article: The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals that Protect Us From Violence Gavin De Becker
You should already be armed with these ‘weapons’ before you seek mastery of any defensive weapon system. The next question is “what constitutes mastery?” I don’t really know. One view is that we should seek perfection. Another view is that perfection is the enemy of good enough.
We need more knowledge about the degree of perfection we seek. What is good enough? One way I use to determine what is good enough is to look at what actually stops folks who are shot with handguns. According to Dr. Martin Fakler, writing in the International Wound Ballistics Association Journal, folks stop for the following reasons - in order:
I don’t know about you, but I’m not crossing my fingers and hoping that the guy just gives up, and I’ve read all about the ‘dead man’s ten seconds’ so I’m putting my money on hits to the central nervous system.
This kind of flies in the face of ‘most gunfights happen within 10 feet so you don’t have to be all that accurate’ logic. You have to be able to place the shot you need to stop the threat.
Examine the anatomy of a human, find out the lowest point in the CNS where a round will stop the movement needed to bring the threat to you. Train for the degree of accuracy needed to hit that spot reliably from close range first, then mid-range, then long range. One thing that I have started doing is shooting six round strings at speed, Rob Vogel advocates this because you don’t get weapon shift due to grip in the first couple rounds - made sense to me.
To me this is what my initial training should focus on - accuracy and then speed and of course keeping the weapon running. Any good instructor should be able to help you get there, no need to travel a gazillion miles - fundamentals and practice. By the way, I include ‘presentation’ (sexy word for drawing) in this initial training.
So now we can stand on our two hind feet and shoot accurately, next step is to combine the same degree of accuracy with fluid movement.
At this point I’d be ready to go to a tactical SME class. The thing to remember is that while most of the advancements in firearms technique come from the competition aspect, not all competition techniques translate directly to the martial field. As an example, I love to shoot action pistol, but the fastest way to shoot the multiple target exercises during action pistol competition doesn’t correlate to real life - bad guys don’t line up for you :).
By this time you are probably well on the way to being able to shoot faster than you can think/identify, which can be a problem. For defensive purposes just hone the skills.
While I think it is important to keep an open mind, at some point we need to develop solid skills, THEN tweak them. As an example Rob Vogel’s ideas on grip are somewhat different than, say Bill Rogers’ - so if I was a beginning shooter I could really mess myself up by piggybacking those two schools. However, as a more maturely developed shooter, I can gain from both.
There is no absolute ‘measurement’ each instructor should have standards drills to help you determine your competency with their technique. I’d use that as my minimum yardstick.
