GLOCK: Demanding access to Form 4473 - Over-zealous marketing or Big Brother?

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
1

WTF is up with Glock???

Yeah, I know some will say “if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to hide”…

But I wonder if Glock knows that in some states it is a felony to create a list of firearm owners (Florida for example).

http://www.tropgun.com/trop-response-to-glock-blue-label-program-termination/

[i]Trop Response to Glock Blue Label Program Termination

Trop Gun Shop regrets to inform our customers that we will no longer be participating in the Glock Blue Label program. Effective immediately, Glock terminated us from the program for refusing to furnish access to our customers’ private information for the purposes of auditing by Glock employees. While it is regrettable that we will no longer be able to offer the benefits of the Blue Label program here at Trop, we absolutely refuse to compromise the sensitive information of our customers by furnishing it to anyone without proper authority through standard legal practices.

To participate in the Glock Blue Label program a dealer must allow Glock access to audit “qualifying credentials” of its Blue Label customers. Typically these credentials are a form of identification verifying the individual is a member of one of the groups listed in the Blue Label program.

Recently a representative of Glock entered our establishment and demanded access to view our records related to all Blue Label sales, specifically our ATF Form 4473s, which contain very detailed, personal and identifying information of our customers. We refused the Glock representative access to this information.

During repeated correspondence Glock continued to demand access to the 4473s or we would be terminated from the Blue Label program. We attempted to reconcile the situation while maintaining our customers’ privacy and made every effort to comply with reasonable requests to audit the Blue Label sales to maintain the integrity of the program. However, Glock insisted that access to the 4473s and only access to the 4473s would be a sufficient level of compliance.

Our position was, and continues to be, that we will not surrender to Glock our Form 4473s and our customers’ identifying information under any circumstance. It is an untenable breach of our customers’ privacy and Trop Gun Shop will not submit to this unreasonable demand. As a result of our position, Glock immediately terminated our status as an authorized participant of the Blue Label program. Furthermore, Glock advised us that if we ever applied in the future, that request would be denied. While we are displeased that we can no longer support our qualifying customers through the Blue Label program, Trop Gun Shop remains committed to the security and privacy of all of our customers, and continues to offer its Law Enforcement / Military discount to those who qualify.

Regards,

Trop Gun Shop[/i]

2

I would say over-zealous marketing, unless something more nefarious is afoot (not impossible, given various governments’ affinity for civilian disarmament, backdoor or otherwise).
Good on Trop.

3

How could they anyway? The forms are the property of the ATF no?

I can see maintaining the integrity of the program but I’d think that effort would be better spent on insuring the integrity of the dealers participating in it themselves.

4

This is common and I am surprised a dealer refused them access. All other dealers do.

5

The Glock Blue Label program is under scrutiny because of the case below:

http://www.fbi.gov/kansascity/press-releases/2014/kansas-firearm-distributor-charged-with-paying-bribes-and-kickbacks-to-glock-executives

According to the indictment, most of Glock’s pistols are sold to independent firearm distributors who have contracts with Glock to resell its pistols. The allocation of Glock pistols was important because the demand frequently exceeded the supply.

Glock created two different sales channels for purposes of licensing its distributors. One channel was for sales to law enforcement agencies. Independent distributors were authorized to resell Glock pistols to law enforcement agencies within a specific geographic territory. The other channel was for the commercial market. Distributors of commercial market products were not restricted to a particular geographic area.

Glock used a Universal Product Code to differentiate pistols that were sold for resale to law enforcement agencies (blue label products) from pistols sold for resale to the commercial market (red label products). The price list for pistols intended for resale to law enforcement agencies is lower due to the fact law enforcement agencies routinely buy in bulk and are often subject to bidding processes.

The indictment alleges Wood and Dutton provided Ralph with equipment and software to allow him to convert firearms sold with the law enforcement discount (blue label) to firearms sold at the premium price to the commercial market (red label). Ralph is alleged to have sold at least 14,000 pistols to commercial buyers—including Cabela’s—which Glock sold to Ralph for resale to law enforcement agencies.

The indictment alleges that from 2003 to 2009, Ralph used the U.S. Postal Service to send and receive approximately 140 bribes and kickbacks that were delivered to defendants Lisa Dutton and Paula Wood. Between 2009 and 2011, the indictment alleges, Ralph used wire transfers to send approximately 80 bribes and kickbacks.

Kansas Firearm Distributor Charged with Paying Bribes and Kickbacks to Glock Executives

U.S. Attorney’s Office
June 04, 2014 District of Kansas
(316) 269-6481

TOPEKA, KS—A Kansas firearms distributor was indicted today on federal charges of paying more than $1 million in bribes and kickbacks to executives of the company that manufactures Glock pistols, U.S. Attorney Barry Grissom said.

John Sullivan Ralph, III, 40, Olathe, Kansas, who was owner of Global Guns & Hunting Inc. of Olathe, Kansas, doing business as OMB Guns, is charged with one count of conspiracy, 11 counts of wire fraud, and 10 counts of money laundering.

The indictment alleges Ralph secretly paid executives of Glock to receive preferential treatment over other distributors of firearms, including directing potential customers to his company, giving his company priority access to limited products, steering government contracts and sales to government agencies of firearms and accessories to his company, and providing confidential Glock information to him.

The following co-defendants are charged with the same counts as Ralph:

James “Craig” Dutton, 42, Acworth, Georgia, who was the assistant national sales manager for Glock. The American headquarters of Glock Inc. is in Smyrna, Georgia.

Lisa Delaine Dutton, 42, Acworth, Georgia, who was Craig Dutton’s wife, and who formed a company called Supreme Solutions LLC. She is alleged to have concealed payments of bribes and kickbacks.

Welcome D. “Bo” Wood, Jr., 65, Oviedo, Florida, who was the Eastern Regional Manager for Glock.

Paula Ann Wood, 63, Oviedo, Florida, who was Bo Wood’s wife, and who formed a company called Tropical Marketing & Consulting LLC. She is alleged to have concealed payments of bribes and kickbacks.

According to the indictment, most of Glock’s pistols are sold to independent firearm distributors who have contracts with Glock to resell its pistols. The allocation of Glock pistols was important because the demand frequently exceeded the supply.

Glock created two different sales channels for purposes of licensing its distributors. One channel was for sales to law enforcement agencies. Independent distributors were authorized to resell Glock pistols to law enforcement agencies within a specific geographic territory. The other channel was for the commercial market. Distributors of commercial market products were not restricted to a particular geographic area.

Glock used a Universal Product Code to differentiate pistols that were sold for resale to law enforcement agencies (blue label products) from pistols sold for resale to the commercial market (red label products). The price list for pistols intended for resale to law enforcement agencies is lower due to the fact law enforcement agencies routinely buy in bulk and are often subject to bidding processes.

The indictment alleges Wood and Dutton provided Ralph with equipment and software to allow him to convert firearms sold with the law enforcement discount (blue label) to firearms sold at the premium price to the commercial market (red label). Ralph is alleged to have sold at least 14,000 pistols to commercial buyers—including Cabela’s—which Glock sold to Ralph for resale to law enforcement agencies.

The indictment alleges that from 2003 to 2009, Ralph used the U.S. Postal Service to send and receive approximately 140 bribes and kickbacks that were delivered to defendants Lisa Dutton and Paula Wood. Between 2009 and 2011, the indictment alleges, Ralph used wire transfers to send approximately 80 bribes and kickbacks.

Upon conviction, the crimes carry the following penalties:

Conspiracy: A maximum penalty of 30 years in federal prison and a fine up to $1 million.

Wire fraud: A maximum penalty of 30 years in federal prison and a fine up to $1 million on each count.

Money laundering: A maximum penalty of 20 years and a fine up to $50,000 on each count.

The FBI investigated. Assistant U.S. Attorney Richard Hathaway is prosecuting.

6

The Blue Label program is for LEO’s, right? So why would Glock need to see 4473’s that would have no information on them regarding eligibility to that program?

7

It has SN of gun and who it was sold to. Though a crooked dealer can have a fake set of those too.

8

9

Glock’s legitimate business interest only extends to verifying eligibility for their blue label program discounts.

Selling lots of guns to LE does NOT entitle them to on demand access to confidential Federal government forms.

They need to come up with another way to verify eligibility that does not involve clear violations of privacy.

Pulling the program from that dealer and threatening to never re-approve it sounds pretty spiteful and is a common bullying tactic.

Glock USA should be contacted to determine if this is their official policy or the actions of a single account rep gone “full retard”.

Glock may need to be lit up on Social Media to elicit a response if this turns out to be an actual company directive with clear privacy concerns.

10

They need to get rid of the government employee discount completely.

11

Why is that?

12

Because it is a joke.

13

I’m seriously interested in learning why people have a problem with it.

I’ll admit up front I’ve bought a few Glocks through the Blue Label program, and I appreciate having the discount. From a non-Blue Label purchaser perspective, I’d like to hear guys opinions on it. Feel free to shoot me a PM if guys want to keep it private.

14

It seems to be random in who gets in and who does not.

An LE cadet who may not even graduate the academy can get a discount, a VFF like me can get a gun (even though no gun is required in my job), but the combat vet who risked his life to rescue hostages, kill bin laden, etc., cannot.

15

I had never read the full list of who’s eligible for the program until after your post. Ignorance on my part.

Thanks for your answer.

16

Because government employees shouldn’t be treated to extra special conditions with firearm ownership.

17

Bingo.

18

This is targeted at LE cadets who have to buy their own equipment and/or pay their own way through an area or regional LE Academy, usually via a community college

19

The Kansas case I cited earlier in the thread isn’t the first or only case of “blue label” fraud I’ve heard of.

http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/09/three_people_connected_to_elli.html

These guys would sell an LEO a blue label gun then attribute a second or third blue label gun to that LEO witn glock but actually sell the gun to a straw purchaser. It came to light when large numbers of blue label Glocks started showing up as crime guns. So you have mail fraud, wire fraud and aggravated identity theft.

20

I don’t recall form 4473 having a spot that identified me as LE, FD, EMT, GSSF member, etc.

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