We know what pistol rounds will do up close and personal. We have all seen the gel test.
But what will they do at 100+ yards?
Can anyone point me to a get test or water bottle test or …for 9mm, and 45ACP bullets at 100 yards?
I am not aware of any. It would be very difficult to conduct such tests due to having to place the bullets into the gelatine blocks. It would be easier to simple use reduced velocity loads to approximate getting shot at 100 yards.
Pat
I think it would be fairly easy to do with a lab. :rolleyes:
But since no one with a lab has done this kind of test… I think it would not be difficult to cheat and get meaningful results.
- Calculating the expected velocity.
- Hand load reduced loads.
- Shoot gel at a shorter distance.
And I would do this, if I at my old place with reloading equipment and somewhere to shoot, this is what I would have done.
My guess is that at 100 yds a typical HP will see little expansion due to the lost velocity.
In any case, at 100 yards a pistol is going to be marginal at best, and that is really beyond it’s effective range. Other than being an intellectual curiosity, I can’t see any benefit to conducting such testing.
Aside from the practical difficulties in hitting a typical gelatin block reliably at 100 yards, what’s the point? A pistol isn’t a 100 yard weapon even in wild zombie fantasy world (let alone the real world). What useful information would you actually yield?
Perhaps the testing would be useful in pistol carbine or SMG use?
I would say the subject is valid as a handgun caliber can be used for defensive purposes out to 50 and 75yds with decent accuracy. Not everyone can afford or is allowed to deploy rifles (L/E Departments like Philadelphia) so knowing how your departments selected loads function over distance is just as important as knowing what they do up close and personal. As for pistol calibers being useful the Israel Defense Forces used the UZI 9mm carbine as a main infantry weapon for decades with success so as it was then it is still a valid option today to use pistol calibers for short ranged defensive purposes. Are their better choices “Yes” but not everyone has that option.
Long ago, we did some extended range MP5 testing; the bullets acted just like you would expect–they poked holes in the gel with minimal TC. Depending on the load, some expanded, some didn’t.
DocGKR,
Do you recall what loads did expand and what the penetration was?
Also what was the distance from target and barrel length of the MP5’s.
Thanks!
Really? Getting a hit at 100 yards with a pistol in a gunfight is an accomplishment. As long as it pokes a hole and penetrates, who cares? What is the purpose of asking this question? I can understand testing an MP 5 at 100 yards, a pistol, not so much.
Standard MP5’s with 8.9" barrels. I don’t have the data handy at the moment, but due to the decreased expansion noted, most of the loads were penetrating like FMJ–in excess of 18 inches…
“As long as it pokes a hole and penetrates, who cares?”
Exactly!
So you only buy FMJ ammo for your pistols?
With long range pistol shots, they pretty much are all acting like FMJ’s…
JHP only poke holes too…just slightly bigger. Wouldn’t you want the added insurance of a good JHP when the fight is up close and personal? Not only is it much easier for you to hit the badguy up close, but it is much easier for the badguy to hit you. You want those CQC fights to end as quickly as possible, and a JHP will give you a slight edge over FMJ.
At longer ranges, the battle may take much longer since it takes longer to flank and get around your cover to get hits on you. So, you have a lot more time to play with. If you can hit the badguy at 100yrds, you’re in pretty damn good shape for the rest of the fight. If he doesn’t bleed out, he might consider retreating, surrendering, or he may be crippled enough to keep him from doing much to defend himself.
I would prefer to have the added advantage of JHP up close and personal as well as at longer ranges. Wouldn’t you?
For years I have said there is not enough difference in premium handgun bullets to worry about. Now as I look at adding range, I don’t know if that is true or not. I can not find anyone who has done the test.
Additionally, I have some options that others may not (9mm, 45ACP/Super, 300-221). The better I understand the terminal ballistics the better choices I can make.
My interest is that my back-ups to my AR’s are Ruger Police Carbines PC9GR (9mm version) and the PC4GR (.40 S&W) which are basically deployed for use at ranges under 125yds (Per Ruger). Since I can afford 9mm/.40S&W much easier then 5.56 at the moment I will be training more with the Rugers so it could not hurt to have the best possible defensive ammunition on hand encase the need arises. I was thinking that maybe the Speer 9mm short barrel loading would be a option as it was designed to expand at lower velocities but I would have to hope it would still hold together and penetrate at a close impact distance.
I have a water box so I can see a warm weather test coming up.
Thank you, and
Do you reload?
I have a specific interest in the 147gr subsonic ammo. It would be great if you could look at Fed HST 147gr.
I have a dozen different premium loadings from 115gr to 147gr, standard velocity to +P+ from Federal, Winchester, CCI and Remington. The HST’s are one of them so once its warm enough to play outside with my water box most likely sometime in mid to late April I’ll post my very unscientific expansion results here. Handgun will be a Glock Model-17 to 50yds and the Carbine will be my Ruger PC9GR 9mm to 100yds. As DocGKR stated most likely all I will see is little to no expansion but the project will give me something to do on a nice spring day and who knows maybe one of the loads fired may surprise with better then expected results.
DocGKR,
If you happen to come across those results with the MP5’s could you please P/M them to me.
Thank you!
Please post your results, Phila PD 
The 9 mm carbines have about 150-200 fps more muzzle velocity than a typical 4" handguns, with the same loads. Provided they don’t fragment at close range due to this higher velocity, this should extend the optimal range (with expansion) some other 50 yds or so beyond the 25 yds used a baseline for the handgun. At 100 yds the velocity drop should be large enough to make expasion iffy.
The last thing I would be worried about is terminal performance of my sidearm @ 100m if for some ungodly reason I was dumping rounds downrange at a soft target and a long gun were out of play, my main concern would actually be hitting the target in such a dynamic environment. It would be more suppressive fire than anything else unless the situation was highly irregular. Then on the other hand if one were CONUS dumping rounds downrange @ 100m with a sidearm, in a firefight, things have really went down the crapper for you.