can i ask you why 4, 30rds mags when your a LEO? i know tier 1 guys who carry less mags
I also carry two on my rifle for six total. It’s one less mag than I carried in the Army so I feel a little naked.
If I have to deploy my rifle its not for looks and there is no way I’m getting caught short when the bullets start flying.
I know for a fact other Deputies are showing up with maybe two magazines. I have yet to do any training in which our ammo guy does a re-supply and that doesn’t cut it in my book. Who do you want showing up when the sh*t hits the fan (not you personally, just a general question)?
If you’ve ever read the book Terror at Beslan then you know where I’m coming from. I’m a firm believer that terrorists are coming for our kids and I cant believe every LEO in America isn’t carrying at least a combat load.
i understand where u coming from but, chances of a police officer getting into a shoot out where he ends up spenting 5 30rd mags is highly unlikley and also very scary, specially if the officer is sending rounds downrange in a controlled and professinal manner, i am saying this cause my brother in law is a police cheif and they just started a new tactical SRT unit, and they asked for my opinion on weapons, gear and i helped out with giving them my opinion and feedback, one of the things i said was no officer should carry or needs to carry more than one mag in the gun and 2 or 3 spare
wolverineSIERRA
Can you tell us what your qualifications are and why you would suggest no cop would ever need more than two or three spare magazines? I think 4 in the chest rig and two on the gun is pretty reasonable and a good balance. It is also likely more than needed to handle most situations. That is the way it should be.
What is a tier 1 guy?
When the officer made his decision to carry a chest rig with 4 mags he had his reasons. Blanket statements like “no officer should carry or needs to carry more than one mag in the gun and 2 or 3 spare” should be avoided. His load out is only two more than you suggest.
Why do I carry two spare magazines for my Glock 22 when it’s “unlikely” I will ever need 46 rounds? I do it because it is a balance I’m willing to deal with daily. Like most things in law enforcement, and life, it is all about being reasonable. I know officers who were involved in a 45 min shoot out with only their pistols who expended all of their ammunition. They were dealing with a man with an AR who’d killed two cops and several civilians. Most of the cops there were out gunned by the bad guy. I don’t want that to happen to me or any other cop, ever! This was before patrol rifles were available to most of us. That incident is burned in my mind. I say Never Again! The fight was stopped when Drega was killed by an officer with a patrol rifle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Drega
Do you know where this cop works or where I work? Do you know who this officer will have for back up and what type of weapons the backup will bring to the fight? I carry a bandoleer with 4 AR mags and 2 Pistol mags. During the Gulf War I carried 12 magazines, 9 on my web gear, one in my rifle and two in the pockets of my flak jacket. I always had my flak jacket and weapon with me.
4 spare magazines is a reasonable amount of ammo to carry.
The ammo you carry may not only be for you, but for your fellow soldiers or officers.
Exactly…I carried my basic load…our vehicles had spare ammo in them…but I also had another basic load in my go-bag…just in case.
I was also told “You’ll never be issued a rifle…” In 1997, a month into my deployment, I was issued an A2 plus basic load…and deployed with a rifle on every single deployment since then.
Thus, whenever I hear “You’ll never need…” I automatically dismiss whatever is being said in the context of the discussion…
Very true. Murphy’s Law has a way of messing things up. Gear is lost, misplaced, moved, borrowed or simply forgotten. Especially during times of high stress.
I carry 1 in the gun and 3 spares for my patrol/active shooter load. I consider that light. USMCvet was spot on: we all carry spare pistol mags, but will likely never use them, the same goes for rifle mags. If the day is bad enough that you have to put on your active shooter gear, then you need more than one or two spare mags, plain and simple.
The Beslan incident is a good example. IIRC, the first responding snipers expended their ammo very quickly, something like 100 rounds. If you’ve read Giduck’s book, or Grossman’s (or listened to either of them), or read any significant analysis of the Mumbai attacks (that place is coming off my travel list), then you’ll recognize that the day that it happens in America is coming.
I can think of a few very rare moments where an LEO would need to use a more controlled version of suppressive/directed fire. Will it ever happen to me? likely not, but when it does, I’ll be glad that I have enough ammo to sustain the incident, regardless of what a Tier 1 operator has to say.
“Murphy’s Law has a way of messing things up. Gear is lost, misplaced, moved, borrowed or simply forgotten. Especially during times of high stress.” Lets not forget having to strip a magazine or two for malfunctions.
Well I refrained from posting that I also have a bandoleer with 4 more full mags as I thought it might set wolverineSIERRA over the top, but after he said this “i said was no officer should carry or needs to” all bets are off. In fact If I had more duty ammo I’d fill every magazine I owned.
I think the problem with most citizens and for some officers is they have never been overseas and had to deal with the terrorist threat up close and personal. Most want to bury their head in the sand and say its not going to happen here, which is insane.
I’m afraid you will be able to come back to these posts after a major US attack by trained and motivated terrorists and say “wow that dude had a point, the police were totally overwhelmed”.
I work for a pretty big agency and I think just about every patrol/special op Deputy has a long gun. We train active shooter etc but I think we would still be overwhelmed by 10 to 12 trained terrorists in a Beslan or even Mumbai style type attack.
If I’m the first one on the scene I’m showing up to win no matter how bad the odds are.
I’m no hero or Rambo but if some of us don’t think and prepare like this, who will, your brother-in-laws agency (nothing personal)?
Excuse me for putting my inexperienced, just-trying-to-learn-as-much-as-possible nose into this thread, but I’m going to write this statement down in several places for future reference.
Okay just had to check Blue Force’s web site, I have a better question! Why are two pouches empy!
I’m rounder than you and could easily fill the second two pouches. Was it a based on comfort? How big does the chest rig go? Would it fit over a heavy vest or plate carrier?
These are two of the carriers I have for work. The Black Hawk is the bigger of the to and I leave it in my personal vehicle. The smaller rig is from Eagle, I like it because it takes up less space.
We issue the Eagle version to our officers who are issued patrol rifles.
Besides maybe needing the extra ammunition, some people loose track of the fact that mags can and do go bad. This can happen at the most inopportune time so that is why there is a need to carry plenty of mags loaded with good ammunition. The people that I’m responsible for, that have patrol rifles ( soon to be 777), are issued four magazines and 100 rounds of duty ammunition. If I could give them twenty more rounds to completely fill those magazines I would.
all pretty fair and logical arguments, but heres the thing i hear alot of people talking about a belsan school situation, and god forbids that would happen wouldnt that fall under FBI/HRT jurisdiction and it wont no longer be a local LEO matter??? or some other federal agency or even maybe even military??!! my whole argument was when a first responder shows up with his/her carbine, rifle etc they prob wouldnt need to carry 5 to 6 mags because most likely they would never use any of it and help is also on the way and if an officer has to spend 6 30rd mags then thats a FUBAR situation, but what do i know, never been a LEO, sorry if my ignorance offended anyone here
Okay just had to check Blue Force’s web site, I have a better question! Why are two pouches empy! I’m rounder than you and could easily fill the second two pouches. Was it a based on comfort? How big does the chest rig go? Would it fit over a heavy vest or plate carrier?
I keep those two open so I can stuff extra gear/paperwork/etc in them if needed.
The great thing about this rig is its very versatile. In fact I use it in plain clothes to carry my radio, G30 with two G21 mags, and Izzy bandage. If you can stuff it in there its going to hold.
It will fit over my PIG plate carrier w/plates with no problem, but I chose to just run the TACOs on the vest. I’m 600 and 230 so it has plenty of room.
wolverineSIERRA
I’m not sure how far off topic we should get. This is supposed to be a thread about gear.
If there was a prolonged battle I’m sure there would be State and Federal assets sent to the location. In VT we would not see a VT State Police Tactical Support Unit for hours. It is the best trained group we have in VT and they are part time. Their members are road troopers and detectives working across the state. We might get a few VT State Police team members and their special weapons and training there quicker.
I have no idea how long it would take to see an FBI SRT team but suspect the wait would be closer to a day. There are only a few FBI agents in the state they would have to call their team members in for a response. Getting the National Guard or active duty military would take quite a bit of work and would likely take days if necessary. I know the Guard can be activated and is for natural disaster on a fairly regular basis. Getting the military involved in law enforcement is a different issue above my pay grade involving the Posse Comitatus Act. This is not likely to happen quickly enough to help in an active shooter incident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
The whole point in an active shooter situation is to get into the fight and stop the killing as quickly as possible. These people are cowards and prey on helpless victims. If we can shut them down and prove the price is too high we may be able to prevent further attacks. As a country we learned that after Columbine where the tactics used to be contain and wait for SWAT. I have three children and I expect the cops to get in and kill an active shooter in their schools. Waiting for professional SWAT teams would be negligence and cowardice we all know better now. There are cops all across this country that would go in alone if necessary. Depending on the part of the country we work in back up can be a long way out.
I’d like to suggest you read some of LtCol. David Grossman’s writings. I’m not sure what funds look like in your unit but you might be able to attend one of his trainings or even bring him to your unit/base to train with you folks. On Killing is the first book of his I read. He also has a CD of the highlights of his training seminar. It is also well worth the coin even if it is yours. I paid my way to see him speak several times and bought his books and the CD. Okay I need to come clean I first bought it on TAPE then bought it on CD.
Be a Sheep Dog!
There is no one coming to save the local LEO during a situation like this. FBI, Delta Force, SEAL team 6, etc etc aint gonna be there to save the day. It all comes down to the local police. As stated this goes back to Columbine and waiting for SWAT to show up.
If anyone expects me to go into a active shooter situation with two magazines they are insane.
John Giduck gives a awesome class on school shootings and he talks extensively about the clusterfu*ck that happened with the different Special Forces units at Beslan. The terrorists knew this and used it to their advantage to gain time and set up all their IED’s and fortify the school. Not to mention stalling with talks of negotiatins.
Think about this for a second: America is watching this unfold on national television. No officers were able to get in there and now there are “negotiations” going on. We all (most of us) know we need to go in there right now but what Sheriff, Chief, politician is going to authorize SWAT to go in while there are negotiations going on. No one is going to sink their carrier with that move, I mean all the terrorists want is to talk right.
My point is, unless you get cops in the door at the first stages of the event its all over and the child body count is going to be un thinkable.
While I don’t think were as screwed up as the Soviets, despite our best inter-agency intentions we would run into the same problems.
Then there is the “Bubba factor”, thats another discussion altogether.
Were talking about schools and kids here, do you think the above special ops units are going to be deployed at a shopping center or Walmart?
sorry if my ignorance offended anyone here
No worries, maybe we can change your thought process on the subject. If you have kids I would highly recommend Terror at Beslan.
This thread is a break-off from the Loadouts pic thread in the Tac Gear sub-forum.
Link- https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=663364&posted=1#post663364
I am not an LEO, or Military(anymore), but my organization has been described as Paramilitary, so I’d like to add a few thoughts.
- When it come to preparing, training, planning, equipping, etc. for this type of work, you can not plan for the “most likely scenario”, you must plan for the worst case scenario.
The most likely scenario is, I’ll be bored to tears for 10-14 hours, turn my weapon in, and go home safe.
-Various things need to be taken into account when deciding on a load out.
Design basis threat
Type of weapon you carry
Number of members you’ll be operating with, & their types of weapon’s
Skill & physical fitness level of you and team mates.
Intelligence on the various types of activity in your AO
Likely hood of and speed of resupply
You nad your teams response plan to various incidents
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Unfortunately, sometimes admin types, who have no chance of rolling into a situation, make some of these decisions. Things like money, and appearance come into play.
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“Help” is not a plan. In my scenario, in the event of an Adversary Initiated Event, it will be over before the FBI’s pagers go off. Response time are extremely short( I won’t go into it for opsec), but there is no time to make a phone call, much less wait it out, & it will take a large amount of firepower to deny the adversary his objective.
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Recent events as described above, re-enforce this.
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With the numbers of conex’s and shipping containers entering this country, daily, it only takes one, filled with Soviet type small arms and explosives to fully equip and arm a sizable force to cause immense damage to this country. Don’t think Times Square, think various vital facilities of the US Govt, infrastructure, etc.
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In some training with Paul Howe, he was asked about load outs, his response was interesting.
He feels it should take a max of 3 rounds to successfully engage a target, under all conditions, moving, unknown range, exhaustion, cold, wet, etc etc.
That’s 10 bad guys to a magazine, multiplied by every mag you have, and every mag in your team. That’s alot of bad guys. -
To quote another member of Mr. Howes former unit “Aim more, shoot less”.
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I don’t know the OP’s credentials(another reason why I like filled out profiles) & why he is qualified to advise local PD’s on these matters or what he considers “Tier 1” organizations, but I’ve trained with a few current and former members of Mr. Howes former unit, I’ve trained with one of the best SWAT teams in the country, my organization is often thought highly of, they/we all carried more then one or two magazines,… and guns for that matter.
In the end, a balance must be struck. Do I think one or two magazines is “enough” , do I think 10 to 15 is two much?
METT-T
I think the answer is somewhere between 4 and 7 for most LE/SWAT type operations.
Bob
Just an observation. My friend is a patrol officer for a large police department, he’s issued an AR15 for his daily beat. He’s given two (2) 30 rounds magazines and ammo for them. That’s it. No sling, no light, and no method to carry the spare magazine or any other extra ammo. He’s figured out a way to use a section of a tire’s inner tube to attach the spare magazine to the A2 stock on his rifle.
My agency issues three mags, one in handgun, two on the duty belt. They issued 90 rounds for 3 mags for patrol rifles. I personally carry two extra pistol mags and 8 extra rifle mags. I also carry extra shotgun ammunition and of course all the goodies like quikclot and izzy bandages for when it goes south. I look at it this way, better to have it than not need it as to need it and not have it. As a LEO, you also have to worry about you brother officers, several at my agency do carry extra ammo, but some dont. If they run dry, I want to be able to throw them a mag if needed.
I also get the ability to carry a ballistic shield in my vehicle as well as entry tools.
Stay safe.