Hello everyone. A few weeks ago my brother and I took a range trip of an usual nature. Instead of the usual strict regime of drills we just deceided to have a fun and enjoyable trip, a throwback to the old days of plinking with .22s.
We had a small chunk of ammo and after awhile banging on the steel at close range was starting to lose it’s interest. So being the young adults that we are we had some ideas pop in our mind. That was our first mistake :D.
First off just let me say that my brother and I have been enjoying the shooting sports hobby since we were each about ten years old. It’s been a fun ride but along the way we have seen our fair share of malfunctions. An ocassional failure to feed on a 1911, the rare bad primer, an off brand magazine here and there, even a squib from a reloader. All in all we have seen malfunctions. But, we had never actually done a proper torture test ourselves. We had always read about them on the internet but never actually conducted one.
We decieded to give each one of three pistols a mud and sand bath and then empty a magazine into a large dirt backstop. We took an HK45 LEM with Heine Sights and it failed miserably. The pistol actually locked up to the point where my brother could not even retract the slide.
We also gave an M&P 9mm a quick bath and it failed to cycle an entire magazine as well, though we did both agree it seemed to have a fewer share of malfunctions.
The .40 S&W Beretta Vertec did just as poorly as the HK45.
The results were surprising for us especially. All 3 of these pistols have never let us down, apart from ocassional parts breakage on the Vertec. The M&P and the HK45 have been flawless wih each having gobbled up a few cases of ammo with no malfunctions of any sort. We were both dissapointed that these “combat pistols” did so poorly and were wondering if these results were typical? Anyway thanks for taking a look and I hope you enjoy the photos and video. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrlsDep6LMA&feature=youtu.be
We were so shocked (As you can tell from the video), because the pistols had honestly never had any sort of hiccup whatsoever before. Based on the reputation that the HK and the M&P had and combined with our own experience, we were expecting a lot more. The jams were unexpected to say the least. I am really curious as to what the more knowledgble members have to say on this topic. I didn’t expect mud and sand to put one of these weapons out of action.
The whole event really made me question just how resiliant these pistols are. I don’t think they can tolerate much resistance in the mechanism. Heavy grit and particulate pretty much siezed up the HK45 and the Beretta 96 Vertec. The M&P only had slightly fewer hiccups, which I attribute to the fact that it is striker fired and doesn’t have the exposed hammer mechanism inside.
Looks like y’all had fun, hell any day at the range is a good day. I wouldn’t put too much weight on how they preform with all that $hit gunked up in their system.
That said, I still love a good home brewed torture test video.
By the way you need to send your HK45 mag base plates to CCC for their carry mod. They are the $hit. Makes the mags %100 more loadable, real quick turn around too.
what really bothers me is how realistic of a problem that could be. It doesn’t seem crazy that somehow your sidearm could fall into a puddle like that in a stressful situation…hell stuff happens.
I tossed my first glock into a puddle like that and it had no problems, the magazine did after it dried out though.
Even more troubling is that after test firing a few M&Ps I was thinking about purchasing one to see if it is a viable alternative to my EDC glock.
Not that surprising to me. A couple years back, an active duty Navy SEAL posted some photos on the LTW forum of his partners Sig P228 that had been blasted with “moondust” during an extraction from a mission. The P228 slide was locked like 3/4s of the way open from the dust. He use to post on various forums under the name Frogman. At the time, Cylinder and Slide had just put together his Trident pistol and he was explaining why the Fail Zero coating on the parts. So not really that surprising.
It would have been interesting to see if/how a Glock would have performed under the exact same conditions. I’m betting it would work, but there’s never going to be a 100% reliable mechanical device.
The HK and M&P locking up dont surprise me. I recently saw high dollar 1911s, SIGs and HKs driven by super tactical SWAT and military guys go tits up at a course I took. The conditions were hot and dusty, but no deliberate abuse. I’m no fanboy, but the G21 I was shooting and my partner’s G22 didn’t choke once.
Hmm.
What was the stoppage of the HK?
Looked like the trigger mech was frozen up, but I couldn’t tell from the video.
Was the round that ejected when the slide was manually cycled live or spent?
Looks like the slide froze up afterward. I’m assuming that grit got into the locking block, but again, hard to tell. How did you finally get it to cycle/retract?
Usually the first few rounds will blow the mud/water out of the operating system, but doesn’t look like that happened with your test.
That’s funny, but I agree dirt in the wrong places will cause problems with any gun.
I am wondering why would this make you question the resilience of these pistols? You took two known quality and reliable pistols that you have never had a malfunction or any problems with and subject them to torture tests that any variable can happen to impede the function of these guns.
I understand that everyone wants guns that are as reliable and durable as possible but these are quality guns that have been proven by many(minus the s&w 9mm accuracy issues, which don’t impede function). I would not lose any confidence in these guns if they have proven reliable in training and practice.
Why do people feel the need to “torture” test guns with proven designs that have been on the market for years if not decades? :blink:
I think guys would be much better off practicing with the weapon and developing a commanding proficiency with them, as opposed to dropping them in puddles.
Because as men, we want to be sure that the shit we own works. Especially when you’re betting your life on it. Watching a guy on YouTube torture his gun doesn’t solve anything for me. If mine don’t run properly after normal abuse conditions, they won’t get carried. In fact, they’ll be sold off as soon as possible. Don’t take company literature or uncorroborated tests as gospel. Test your own shit before you bet your ass on it.
Of course they did. I don’t think anyone ever suggested otherwise. I wrote that purely as a joke lol.
The fact is, all three guns failed after being submersed in the mud puddle. Does that mean that HK, S&W, and Beretta make crappy guns? Absolutely not. Is it something interesting to think about? Sure.
I think it’s hilarious when people get all defensive when someone shows how gun XYZ failed during some test. Don’t go throw away your HK because of it It’s just a simple unscientific homemade test that had an interesting result. Doesn’t mean anyone is saying the guns suck
Until you induce problems or excessive wear based on the “test” and don’t realize it until the weapon is actually needed.
What’s a “normal” abuse condition anyway?
I wouldn’t run my car w/o engine coolant and throw sand into the engine to know I could make a long trip.
How about shooting the thing as it was designed. Developing some skill, and through a few thousand rounds of ammunition and practice I think you’ll have more than enough faith in the weapon.
Pour some water in the gas tank of a BMW M5 and see how that baby runs.
I understand that we want $900 pistols to run in adverse conditions but at some point, you will be able to break even the most finely tuned mechanical devices.
It’s just a simple unscientific homemade test that had an interesting result. Doesn’t mean anyone is saying the guns suck