Regarding Full Power vs Civ / commercially available lasers, theres a lot of weird mis information, general vague data, and lots of questions left un-answered. Looking to get some clarification. First off, I fully understand a full power laser is mostly grey market, therefore if it breaks, you’re probably SOL if you try and send it in to the manufacturer to get it repaired. My question is mainly in regards to functionality. My experience is mostly with full power lasers, issued to me by the military. PEQ-15’s and LA-5’s. For a personally owned rifle, primarily designated for HD/GO-Bag, SHTF, whatever you want to call it, how do the civilian lasers stack up. I know nothing is going to come close to an LA-5 on high power as its the NVG version of the ****ing sun, but I’d like a functional unit that can illuminate well in urban and rural environments. I also don’t wanna spend 2k+ on an IR unit that if it shits the bed my moneys down the drain. Who here has used the various civ lasers, and can provide real feedback regarding options. I’m looking at the dbal a3, 9007, and atpial-c. DBAL D2 won’t work as the size of it prevents integrating into my current rifle. A MAWL would be nice, but It would take me an astronomically long time to fund one. TIA
In urban environments? The class 1 laser illuminators suck absolute dick AFAIK, based off of what I’ve been told and playing with my friends’ stuff at around dusk in a semi-rural area. You can probably get like 100 yards of useful ilum in rural areas, but if you’re going to be in mixed light environments, all three of the options you pick are going to be pretty dog shit, the ATPIAL-C in particular because you can’t even focus it (although someone has made an aftermarket refocuser: https://villainweaponsystems.com/products/new-atpial-c-external-focusing-lens). The pointer is going to be enough for most situations, for the most part, though.
Before the Ukraine war kicked off, the backdoor way to go was to go for the Russian Zenitco units. These days, I think the most interesting civilian option (assuming no MAWL or DBAL-D2) is probably the Phantom Hill CTF: https://phantomhill.design/collections/ctf2
Another unit that might be of interest is the USNV DesignateIR-V: https://usnightvision.com/designateir-v-dual-beam-laser-green-visible-infrared-laser-vcsel-ir-illuminator/
The other option is to wait around and see how the Z-Bolt ACAL pans out.
Alternatively, you can run either your illuminator unit separate from the pointer and fuse them together with a dual lead tape switch (TAPS SYNC or ModButton Lite). The BEM KIJI will be your only real laser based solution, for LED you can get dedicated heads from Malkoff or Modlite (though be wary of buying too much power and washing out your pointer), or else something like a SureFire Vampire head.
If you’re LE, you can get full power units from Steiner and Wilcox (in theory on the Wilcox side, anyway, lead times are insane right now). They won’t be cheap, but at least you’ll have the ability for factory repairs (warranties are still pretty limited on them).
There are certainly some folks that have tried using airsoft units on real guns with what seem to be acceptable results, at least for LARPing at night: https://www.somogear.com/
The ATPIALGBT+C might as well omit the illuminator. Its that bad. You’ll be seriously disappointed with the illuminator, especially for the price. There is no scenario that I can recommend it over other, cheaper options. Including just a standalone civ laser with a Modlight 930, since thats at least inexpensive.
I haven’t used the civ DBALs, except for the D2, which is pretty good, actually. The MAWL-C works really well, and it’d be a tossup for me between that and a FP PEQ15 if they were the same price, in non-military scenarios. Heavy, though, like the D2.
The Modlight options are a tough call, with the 930 being a bit dim outdoors (but still better than some civ illuminators), and the 850 being rather bright (washout). I keep my 930 around as a “illum is nil” handheld. I’d like to try the Malkoff. The Phantom Hill and the KIJI are also on my want-to-try list. I’m pretty enthused by both ideas.
I use a TLR VIR II on my PCC and pistol, as it is somewhat cheap, and effective at close range. Bright, but not focused, so its all flood. A bit of a pain to zero.
We’ll go ahead and nix the atpial c then, sounds like the Dw will be the best option then, I’ll just have to switch light set ups and move some things around.
IF you can stomach the price, the Be Meyers Mawl is going to be the most fully featured MFAL on the market.
IF you can stomach the weight (meh), the Steiner Dbal D2 is going to be right behind it.
IF you don’t mind LED based illuminators, the Arisaka/Malkoff EX250 head is going to be awesome when paired with say a CQBL or a holosun laser only unit.
IF you want more illuminator power and a more focused throw, and you can stomach the price the BE Meyers KIJI paired with a standalone laser unit is going to work just fine.
IF you want an adaptable MFAL, the Phantom Hill CTF2 will offer that provided you dont want or need a visible laser.
All of these solutions work. It’s just a matter of what are you willing to spend to get what you really want.
Personally, I primarily use Dbal D2’s on my rifles as I like the vis/IR laser centered in the illuminator. It makes active aiming much, much easier as you have a large reference point in the illuminator itself. I also like the fact that you can either focus or widen the illuminator to whatever your needs may be. The EX250 heads are fixed and essentially act like a visible white light head that offers a decent amount of spill. I compare it to a Surefire DF head. There is no real defined “point” or hot spot in the EX250 head so if that’s not what you’re looking for then look to the other offerings.
Admittedly, a dual light setup with a dual lead mod button for the flashlight based illuminator and IR laser gives you a “Ghetto” UI as you can now activate both the illuminator and laser together. For MY uses, I find that outside of simply training active aiming, I am always using the illuminator with my laser. If I cant PID the shit out of it, I can’t shoot it.
I can get the d2’s for 1100 ish through expert voice so that might be the best option
Add a villain diffuser and you have a really, really really versatile system in your hands. For a third of the cost of competing solutions mind you.
That was kind of my thinking, originally I did not want a D2 due to liking the CD owl I’m currently running. I was planning on side mounting the laser on a geissele mk4, but if d2 really is the best option then the owl’s gotta go.
I’ll note that most folks do not think that side-mounting is a very good way to run a laser, simply from a switchology POV, as it makes it more difficult to change modes or hit the fire button (the latter being less of an issue if you’re running a switch). I’ve not used an OWL, but it always struck me as a wonderful WML if you’re running a white-light only rifle with short enough handguards for you to easily use, and terrible if you’re going to integrate an MFAL with it or are running a longer handguard.
The MAWL and Wilcox Raid-XE/X and the like are exorbitantly expensive. They’re absolutely robbing people. For example, in the last year or so, BE Meyers has steadily and suddenly on multiple occasions risen the MAP on the MAWL C+. The MAWL is a great laser, but it went from being a reasonable ~2200 priced laser system, to a now $3600 dollar system. I think they’re doing it because 1. People are still dumb enough to pay the money because they’re obviously still selling. 2. Hype/IG clout culture in the gun industry. 3. They saw the Xe’s price and figured they should be priced in-line with it. Matt Meyers literally hangs around NVG groups and shames anyone who speaks ill of his product, especially when the thermal drift or battery drain issues come up. Though I have no personal experiences with the Wilcox team by contrast, their XE and X lasers (which are a superior design), are still considerably overpriced. Maybe they figured since they’re using the same VSCEL technology as the NGAL, they can command the L3 price point.
So my honest feedback to you is, the main difference between functionality between any civilian powered laser and a full powered one is the illuminator. On the FP the illuminator will be much more powerful. The thing that differentiated the VSCEL models mentioned previously is that, even with the civilian power limitations, they were able to perform at a much higher level than the equivalent previously rated civilian laser diode technology. Your IR lasers are less concerning because the .7mw rated IR lasers can perform well in a defensive situation under NVGs in standard engagement distances. Remember, the IR laser is not a precision shooting device…
So, breaking down what you’re looking at.
The i2 is typically something I would avoid. Now, of all the i2 models, the 9007 is the most useful, as its essentially a smaller PEQ-2. Zeroing it would have to be done under NVGs. I never had the 9007, but back in 2011-12 time frame when there were limited options I had the 9004 I believe. I remember getting my PVS-14 and mounting it behind my aimpoint to zero in darkness. It was very annoying.
For the A3, I own a FP A3 and its one of my favorite lasers. Probably because it has an 80mw visible green laser, which makes it very easy to zero on a hot day in Texas. The A3 civilian I’ve only used on a fellow night vision users rifle at a hunt on my land. It was similar to the ATPIAL-C in that its using a standard laser diode and very weak. The A3 civilian is adjustable but the overall performance of the IR illumination is bad. I would suggest a Surefire V light to go with it.
The ATPIAL-C is the other option. I have 3 FP PEQ-15s and have only witnessed a C in action on the range. Its your typical .7mw IR laser and low powered illumination output, much like the A3 above. However, you cannot focus the IR illuminator.
I would probably choose the A3 if I had to pick the three you’re suggesting.
My personal favorite civilian powered IR laser is, and has been since the early 2010s, the CQBL. It has an in-line offset if mounted at 12. It uses crane plugs. 123 batteries. Has a co aligned IR/Vis laser. If you couple it with a SF V light or other IR illuminator head, its the best combo IMO.
One more thing I should mention. EOTECH is currently working on their own IR laser device. It will be VSCEL from what I’ve been told and have the foot print, similar to that of a deck of cards, or NGAL sized. For anyone unaware, EOTECH is no longer under the umbrella of L3. Their price point will be similar to that of the ATPIAL-C currently. So less than 2k. This should shake up the civilian market and hopefully shift sales away from WILCOX and BE Meyers. ETA early 2023.
We shall see.
tl:dr - get a CQBL + IR Scout instead. Note that the CQBL is discont. and wont be back into production until possibly 2023.
I mean, the NGAL is around that general price point, and I don’t see why the RAID-Xe being a bit more expensive is controversial given that it has much more features (though some are of basically zero utility to non-institutional users), or the MAWL-C1+ being the new price it is. Full power DBAL-A3s are ~3k USD these days, so a few hundred on top of that for a MAWL seems pretty reasonable to me. There remains nothing like the MAWL-C1+ on the market currently; Wilcox does not provide any civilian accessible MFALs currently, and if you can get a Wilcox, you can just as easily get an FP DBAL-A3. The CQBL/300V combo is certainly workable, but I don’t think it’s really equivalent to something like the RAID-X/Xe, MAWL, NGAL, etc., given the lack of illumination focus and mode selection.
This wasn’t a direct comparison between the CQBL and newer lasers. More of a rant of how the market is limited to the MAWL for VSCEL. I recommended CQBL as an alternative to the 9007, A3 and ATPIAL-C.
And also if the new EOTECH is priced like they say, it should shake up the market. Maybe if he would wait for that.
Well, if it’s just VCSEL illuminators that’s wanted, I linked multiple possible options in my original post. I would be very curious to see what the L-3 unit looks like, for sure, though. I would love to put an MFAL on all of my rifles, but it would be prohibitively expensive to get top of the line units for every one (currently using a RAID-X and have a RAID-Xe on order).
I misinterpreted your CQBL statements, I totally agree that such a set-up would generally be a better solution than the three MFALs that was originally mentioned, though you could certainly stick a KIJI on it and get a VCSEL illuminator with the set-up.
Had a chance to get out with some buddies who have various different setups, I definitely see the benefits of VSCEL technology, the mawl was pretty impressive comparative in my eyes to a FP peq. I’ll keep my eyes out for the eotech unit in the coming year, for right now with my budget I think a DBAL D2 is gonna be the best bet. My only complaint with the d2 is the red glow caused by the LED. But its a compromise for better illumination.
Steiner raised prices again recently as well as discontinued the 9007 DBAL-I2 series. So now the only sub $1000. IR laser they offer is the OTAL-C.
Many folks are coupling a Luna ELIR3 (when they are available!) with a DBAL-A3 or even an OTAL-C.
The Luna is the most cost effective IR illuminator on the market with adjustable power and beam. Be careful is that little filter “falls off” the front as the unit gets very powerful. Thankfully they give you a little tool in the bag so you can you know put the filter back on…
Any one gotten there hands on the vcsel unit from US night vision? That looks pretty sweet and same price rang as the D2’s.
There’s a review on a competing site. It seems like a decent unit but i’m saving my money for whatever Eotech is coming out with. I believe that it is going to be a fully featured MFAL at a reasonable price.
3600-3800 dollar is not reasonable and I really honestly have no clue why anyone not on a government budget is buying those things. Granted, if you’re absolutely flush with cash, rock on but most of us aren’t.
From what i’m seeing, the MSRP on the Eotech unit is going to be 1299. That’s pretty freaking awesome.
Last point to make here. Just FYI, VCSEL tech also emits a red glow much like LED’s do. Forward signature is a non issue unless you’re in a theatre of war.
Sounds like it might be worth holding out for the eotech unit then. Understood on the red glow, for most of us using these things it ain’t gonna be downrange, just a factor I try and consider.
I own one and I think its pretty awesome. The form factor, vcsel illuminator, best low profile button and design ive seen to date. Only reason I am selling it and some nods is because I have a baby on the way and need some cash. The illuminator is non adjustable but comes with a diffuser cap. Ive run it in extremely low illum environments and high illum environments. The only thing I don’t like is it has aimpoint acro adjustments, as in you can’t feel anything so its all just turn it little by little and walk your rounds over until its zeroed haha.