Will, I’d like to read your thoughts on nutrition during and after an ultra-event. By Ultra, I am referring to such things as 26.2 marathons, longer marathons, and especially ultra cycling such as randonneuring (rides of 100-1200K at a time in 90hrs or less). While I personally am more interested in the cycling aspect, I know there are more runners here, than cyclists, so I included the marathons too.
TIA,
Vic
It’s not a topic I have given serious research into as it’s not really my area of interest/expertise.
Some stuff that comes to mind that should be helpful, would be Vitargo. I write about it here:
http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/setting-the-record-straight-on-the-waxy-maize-craze/
Vitargo has a number of properties that make it perhaps ideal for that. For example:
“Gastric emptying rates are another important issue to athletes as the faster it leaves the stomach the faster it enters the intestines where it is digested and absorbed. Fast gastric emptying and digestion means the faster glucose levels, insulin spikes, and subsequent glycogen storage and enhanced post workout anti-catabolic action, not to mention no one enjoys having a drink sloshing around in their stomach during or after a workout. It’s just unpleasant and if it’s sloshing around in your gut it’s not doing squat for your muscles! A 2000 study compared the gastric emptying rates of Vitargo to a carb source derived from maize starch and found Vitargo “significantly” faster emptying rate from the stomach, which would partly explain why Vitargo appears to replenish depleted glycogen levels so quickly when compared to other carb sources”
As such events are highly catabolic, I can see the use of BCAA’s as possibly beneficial. Not sure about dosing however, and one essential issue is gastric empty rates.
Any solution has to account for gastric empty rates as to no cause gastric problems and dehydration.
Electrolytes through sports drinks which have sodium and potassium should be of value, but again, essential to not use too high a % concentration.
Not knowing what the break times are (if any), I’m unclear how whole food fits in there. I’d have to research the topic more for useful advice.
Thanks for the info on Vitargo, Will. I know endurance cycling isn’t your core area, but I figured you might have some links or sources for info we had not yet seen.
Hope it helped…Endurance athletes I know swear by Vitargo.
When I cycle I tend to use the Hammer Perpetuem. It REALLY helped me last year doing century rides. I used it on several and it is good stuff for me. In the past I never got hungry during rides and my stomach usually turned sour after the first bottle of gatorade. Once I started with the Perpetuem I actually get hungry in the later phases of a century(usually around mile 70).
I usually break down centuries into 25 mile sections(all the centuries I ride have rest stops every 10 or so miles so I break it down as close as I can get to 25). I have 2 bottles of water and a 3rd separate bottle for the Perpetuem. I carry 3 packets with me and mix one up at the first stop, one at the second stop and one at the 3rd stop.
I also take 2-3 Hammer endurolyte pills at each stop as well. That really helped me retain the water(I had to stop and pee in a field once this year, which never happened to me in the past).
With the combination of the two products above all of my stomach/gastrointestinal issues, muscle cramping, etc… went away. Im sold on them and will continue to use them.
If you feel it’s working for you, carry on, but if you look at the the label:
Maltodextrin, Soy Protein Isolates, Energy Smart® (fruit juice, natural grain dextrin), Soy Lecithin, Coffee Powder, Natural Vanilla Flavor, Trisodium Phosphate, L-Carnosine, L-Carnitine (as Carnipure™), Choline Bitartrate, Caffeine, Stevia, Chromium Polynicotinate.
Main carb source is maltodextrin, which is inferior to Vitargo (see article linked) and dirt cheap. The other stuff, caffeine, L-Carnosine, L-Carnitine are at doses far too low to be of any real benefits and much lower then what’s used in studies showing any benefits.
One could make their own mixture (eg, roll your own) that would be far superior by buying what you want, and adding your own doses, etc.
Although geared as a discussion on pre workout drinks for the gym, this vid still gives one an idea of how to go about it, which you could tweak to your own needs:
Thanks for the info, I will have to do some more research before this season. I honestly dont know much about the exact ingredients, but I do know that it helped me a ton this year(2011) vs. last year(2010). I am all for getting what is best and if that means mixing my own, I have no problem doing that.
It may be better then what you were using (basic sugar type drinks) but you can do much better, as outlined briefly above. 
I watched the video and still have some questions. I guess I am not that smart and dont understand what each thing does that you are including and I would like to know why I am putting something in my body.
I dont mean to steal this thread from the OP, but I think my questions pertain to his.
If I wanted to mix up something similar to the Perpetuem that has worked for me, but with better quality and more focused ingredients, what would you suggest?
As I understand the purpose of the Perpetuem is that it has carbs, protein and electrolytes in it, which are all important in endurance athletic events.
So for the carbs you recommend the Vitargo, thats an easy one.
For protein, do you have a specific brand of protein that you like or recommend. There are about a million brands on the market and then you have soy, whey, and probably a few other types.
For electrolytes is there some all in one type of a powder that you like? Or is getting individual ingredients a better way to go? I have been taking the Endurolytes from Hammer in pill form, they also have a powder. The Endurolytes include Sodium, Chloride, Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, Vitamin B-6, Manganese and L-Tyrosine.
Would you recommend anything else such as the caffeine or anything else that might be needed?
I know there has been research into protein usage during ultra events and it shows that soy based proteins work better in the body during an event, and whey proteins work fine after the event. but I’d have to check with DH on the source for that info.
I would expect whey to be superior during all phases. It’s BCAA content, fast absorption, immune effects, etc would = perfect choice. There’s also data that finds it improved muscular performance:
Effect of supplementation with a cysteine donor on muscular performance
Author Affiliations
Oxidative stress contributes to muscular fatigue. GSH is the major intracellular antioxidant, the biosynthesis of which is dependent on cysteine availability. We hypothesized that supplementation with a whey-based cysteine donor [Immunocal (HMS90)] designed to augment intracellular GSH would enhance performance. Twenty healthy young adults (10 men, 10 women) were studied presupplementation and 3 mo postsupplementation with either Immunocal (20 g/day) or casein placebo. Muscular performance was assessed by whole leg isokinetic cycle testing, measuring peak power and 30-s work capacity. Lymphocyte GSH was used as a marker of tissue GSH. There were no baseline differences (age, ht, wt, %ideal wt, peak power, 30-s work capacity). Follow-up data on 18 subjects (9 Immunocal, 9 placebo) were analyzed. Both peak power [13 ± 3.5 (SE) %,P < 0.02] and 30-s work capacity (13 ± 3.7%, P < 0.03) increased significantly in the Immunocal group, with no change (2 ± 9.0 and 1 ± 9.3%) in the placebo group. Lymphocyte GSH also increased significantly in the Immunocal group (35.5 ± 11.04%,P < 0.02), with no change in the placebo group (−0.9 ± 9.6%). This is the first study to demonstrate that prolonged supplementation with a product designed to augment antioxidant defenses resulted in improved volitional performance.
I am currently running 2 ultras this year the San Tan scramble in Queen creek AZ Feb. 4 and the Zane Grey 50 in Payson AZ April 21
I am 5’11 210 and have ran a marathon and a 30 mile mountain run.
I have switched completely off gel and now use raw local honey its easier on my stomach and I never crash from it. I take it 15 min in and every 30-45 depending on how I am feeling. I swear by it and so does my brother who is a sponsored bike rider. I also like to ingest simple foods apple, banana or a half of a sandwich I seem to perform better when I eat something when I run for longer then 4+ hours. I do like the hammer nutrition perpetum and EFS from 1st endurance as the taste of the perpetum is not to strong and doenst taste bad warm. I know the trainer at the bike shop FASTER is recommending honey as a fuel supplement. the most important thing is to try it out and see what works best for you.
Will & Master,
The local honey is an interesting idea, I may have to look into something like that. However as a type II diabetic and looking at ultra cycling events I am kind of off the documented page as far as nutrition goes.
Personally I am trying to balance my carb intake with protien & fats to lengthen the glucose/energy curve. My experience with pure carb/sugar products in the past is it generates a fast energy curve up, and just as fast I come down. I’m also trying to balance this with something that will be easily portable while on the bike.
In the past I’ve done centuries and multi day tours off of bananas, chocolate chip cookies and cheeseburgers. Fast forward 20+ years and throw in being an insulin dependent diabetic and that plan doesn’t work anymore.
My current plans are for multiple 200KM rides throughout the year with a possible 300KM in September. I can probably muddle my way through nutrition on a 200KM by sheer stuborness & stupidity, but the 300KM is going to take a workable plan.
Semper Fi
I sent you a link via private message about honey intake
for me personally honey has a smoother uptake with no crash.
My hats off to you for still doing ultra type events on insulin. My mom has early stages of diabetes and is combating it by running her first marathon the pf Changs rock n roll here in PHX in a few weeks she is 55.
Better to try and overcome then to say I can’t.