Kinda brought about by Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 tax proposal, and Ive been interested in the “fair tax” system for a while.
Would you support a tax that does away with the BOOKS of tax code we have now for just a simple one rate tax regardless of income? If not what do you think would work?
While I like the idea of a flat tax keep in mind we also have a citizenry who relies on the tax dollars to an almost 1:1 ratio (half our citzens) to put food in their bellies and a roof over their head. Even though its “fair” everyone pays the same percentage out of their income I think you might find a good percentage of people burning shit to the ground when they stop getting 6-10k a year back in “tax credits”, and everything cost them 9% more at the store. Everyone wants the other guy to be taxed, and obviously the “rich” are an easy target. But I think a progressive tax system is a HUGE KEY to why we have most state’s budgets largest spending item being social spending, and the Federal government budget is well over 50% social spending.
If half our population pays no taxes, and a large chunk of that actually gets back more than they paid then we will forever be relegated as a country where politicians get voted in based on how much freebies they hand out. Since half don’t have a personal stake in what tax rates are (currently) its a no brainer why suddenly the rich are being told they aren’t paying their fair share even though they pay a majority of the taxes.
In my humble opinion if we ever want to get this country back on track, restore personal freedom, and make sure every one who votes is doing so for the right reason we need everyone paying taxes, and even gradually getting rid of social programs. The left is almost assuredly going to win by means of 2 steps forward one step back when almost HALF the people in this country rely on tax dollars to feed themselves and put a roof over their head. No one is going to vote to take away their source of food and shelter.
I think as time goes on this class is only going to grow, and its fueled by the fact we have had progressive taxes so long enough people can become convinced the answer to our country’s financial woes can be solved simply by taking even more money from a small group of people. Obviously this system cannot work long term. We basically have a pack of lions who are hungry for more, and some tasty meat hanging off the bones of others. They are licking their chops. If we do not fix fundamental flaws in our way of doing business soon we will be lost forever. This isn’t even the 60’s where small businesses did their books by hand, everything was done with cash, and people stuffed the shit into their walls and inside mattresses.
I would be personally willing to deal with the outrage NOW because I don’t want to be an old man living in a communist country where my kids live as slaves to a progressive wonderland of bleeding the productive to feed the excess baggage.
I prefer the fair tax to a flat tax. A flat tax the (read some sarcasm here) benevolent gov decides how much of the money I earned, I can keep and I also feel lime it is a penalty for earnings.g. With the fair tax, I don’t have to pay tax if I just buy the essentials. So any time I or anyone else splurges, we pay. Even the hardest criminal and the biggest mooches in society buy things above their necessities. Seems like a better way to figure out the"fair share" is.
I just don’t think the government could function like it currently does, and that really has no chance of passing the government cronies whose LIVELIHOOD is based on the government continuing to run at this level, or bigger.
Also, since the gov’t wouldn’t be able to force you to buy things, they have no power over your money, and also no power to generate auto-pay triggers. They have to keep taking the money in to keep the ponzi schemes going. As soon as the output overtakes the inputs by too large a margin, you have a Bernie Madoff kaboom of SS, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.
Lastly, is a car a necessity or a luxury? Ok, which car is a luxury? Is a Mercedes-Benz a luxury car or a normal car for a lawyer, doctor, etc? Why is the government deciding that? Which computer is a luxury item? Is the Iphone luxury, it’s just a nice cell phone.
I just can’t see giving the government a worse kind of power over us, though I would like to see my gross income come to my bank account versus pissing away a large chunk of it to federal and state coffers.
I think we should completely do away with the IRS and implement either a fair tax or a flat tax with provisions for a balanced budget amendment. The country is overspending and social programs like obamacare and the crony capitalism has gotten out hand.
There is no need to have thousands of pages of tax code that our leaders dont even understand or haven’t even read. If the gov’t was more transparent with where our tax dollars are going then maybe those more well off would not mind paying a higher rate.
The more people we have employed and paying taxes means more tax money coming in.
By freeing up regulations and spurring job creation we will have MORE employed people therefor more money from taxes. The corporate tax rate needs to be lowered so we actually keep businesses in America hiring Americans so that we all benefit. Keeping costs down for Americans should be job one, but profits are more important. Look at the current state we are in and tell me if it has helped businesses. Earnings are down and prices continue to rise.
Gas prices are killing peoples income. There is no reason that fuel costs should be this high with all that we have at our disposal. I am 25 years old and I can remember being 16 years old driving my moms car and filling it up for less than 20 dollars. It had a 17 gallon gas tank and i could get a full tank of gas and coke for less than 20$.
I have a fullsize truck with a 30 gallon tank now. 9 years later and gas is 300% higher! Demand for fuel didnt change. But supply from the middle east and OPEC and a bunch of other shit has cost americans a fortune. When prices go up for suppliers it gets passed down to the consumers. Fuel costs have us all in a choke hold.
By freeing up the regulatory systems in our country it will give people the freedom to what they want with their money. I know better what to do with my money than the government does. If people decide not to invest and plan for the future, it is their problem. If they choose not to provide health care for themselves and their family, also their problem. It should not be on the backs of hard working people.
But before we can expect people to do those things we need to create an environment where they can provide for themselves by creating more opportunity.
The income tax should be abolished and a fair tax or consumption tax should be instituted.
It’s passive, seamless, and requires no agencies to enforce. No exceptions are needed. No tax returns. It could save billions a year in agency costs alone. No worries about capitol gains or death taxes. That scumbag Buffett would get the tax increase that he so wants.
More importantly, it would make every single person in this nation a tax payer. Rich, poor, citizen, illegal, tourist, black, white, whatever. Everyone would be pay taxes, which would do wonders for our national debt because no one would be a freeloader anymore. Everyone would pay into the system.
Plus it achieves the goal every liberal wants. They want millionaires to pay the same rate as their secretaries, well this will get it done.
Say a modest 5% on all consumer goods and services.
Edit: A consumption tax would also end tax increases forever because neither party will want to piss off 100% of the nation.
The actual “Fair Tax” would be revenue neutral. Though it is estimated to increase revenue much like when they lowered capital gains taxes increased revenue, it would spur growth.
This is the biggest hurdle for getting the fair tax, the government would lose a control mechanism.
If you are talking about the “Fair Tax” nothing is labeled luxury or non luxury, everything is taxed, everything at the retail level and only the retail anyway. The way taxes are eliminated is from a prebate that covers the tax burden for your essentials. The prebate would be the same for all and is determined by the poverty level, which we already track. This way if you make 2 mill a second and go buy expensive clothes you pay for your excess, but if you make 20k and shop at the salvation army, you wont. But since everyone gets the same money for the prebate they all have the same opportunity to not pay taxes. It would be paid out only to those with a valid social so illegals would not get a prebate, but would still pay in every time they get food.
The fair tax takes away their power, but it will only work if the 16th amendment is repealed. Used items including cars and houses would not be subject to tax, and neither would goods at the production level.
Just FYI for those who dont know, you are already paying an imbedded tax on everything you buy to the tune of about 22%. This is over and above the known sales tax. It comes from the taxes being paid by all of the companies that it took to bring the product to you. Taxes are a cost to them so they increase the price accordingly. So think about that every time you buy something:suicide2:
That is the point. If everytime someone had to go buy something it cost them 20% more than the shelf price people would finally understand just how much they are paying, and how much money the gov is stealing from people MOST of which goes directly into other people’s pockets.
If we keep the progressive tax we have a small minority paying the majority of taxes, and we are going to take the slow boat right into pure communism where taxes are so high there is no such thing as rich anymore.
Look at how often “they” pull out the chart where it shows top income tax rates as high as 90%. Back then companies had their books on paper, everything was done in cash transactions, and as I said people kept wads of money plastered into walls and in floor boards. There was no possible way for the IRS to have near the tax collecting power they do now. Not to mention there were way more loopholes and exemptions than there are now. The left wants to bump up the tax rate much more than it is now while keeping the current lack of exemptions and loopholes (in comparison) while keeping or even expanding the current methods the IRS uses to steal money (digital age, new laws).
If everyone had to get burnt by how much the Feds take from people there would be a lot less support for large government and huge social spending programs. Now people can just point fingers at ‘that guy’ who should be paying more because he has a nice house, a new truck, and a boat. But if you are a leech we actually pay them thousands every year. Gee we really have “fair” elections when we are paying almost half the population money to put food on the table…
I think you could also accomplish some of the things you’re talking about by getting rid of employer withholdings. If everyone had to write a check to the IRS quarterly out of their bank accounts I think more people would see just how high taxes are. As it stands it is so easy to just look at what gets deposited in the bank as what you make while the money changes hands behind the scenes.
Go to a national sales tax and eliminate, completely the income tax. You could get rid of 98% of the IRS (talk about a big savings!). Collect it through the state sales tax apparatus. This lets the states apply some pressure to the feds. For those few states that done’t have a sales tax you would have to have a few offices to collect and manage it.
Simplify the tax code? Sure, sounds great. Cain throws out his “9-9-9” plan that is a catchphrase with absolutely no support from any credible economist. But, hey, it’s catchy and simple and easy to remember and, honestly, isn’t that what most Americans want?
There’s something like 1.2 million lawyers in the United States and law schools are churning out another 45,000 graduates every year. The numbers are pretty similar for accountants. Over a third of our congressman are attorneys and their staffs are stacked to the gills with attorneys.
And a bunch of those folks make a pretty decent living translating and navigating a federal tax code which is unintelligible to the hoi polloi, not to mention all the other federal, state, and local statutes and regulations.
So pardon me for not holding my breath waiting for Congress to “simplify” the tax code. In my experience, most people aren’t highly motivated to slit their own throat.
It might get a guy elected, but don’t think for a minute it’s actually gonna happen.
I would not be surprised if Thomas Sowell also gives a formal endorsement based on his statements on the Hannity Show.
The fact that Paul Krugman doesn’t like it is another credible endorsement in my book.
In terms of getting passed, there is a growing consensus that the tax code must be reformed. Cain is actually a proponent of the Fair Tax, but understands that a bridge is needed to get to a complete consumption tax system. 9,9,9 demonstrates Cain’s ability to articulate a simple, specific solution to the tax base question - something no one else from either party has done.
Personally I would love to see some form of a “fair or flat tax.”
Below are the thoughts of someone with a small business and in the 35% tax bracket.
The current tax code has so many issues in that I don’t think I could list them all. There are few that really get me though. The first one is the fact that about half of all Americans don’t pay any taxes. The second one is that large S/C Corps can afford to have full time tax attorneys that find every loop hole and their brother to keep from paying taxes (to include moving profits off shore).
At this point in time, the smaller companies are paying their FULL SHARE of taxes. They do not have the ability to hide or move money around like the bigger companies do.
With some sort of fair or flat tax we would also catch all the people that pay NO INCOME TAXES (to include illegal immigrants). Does anyone else get annoyed when you see all these commercial from tax attorneys telling people that they can negotiate a lower tax payment for them??? WTF??? Wouldn’t we all like to pay half of our income tax bill???
My last bitch is poor people or young people that are just starting out in their careers that have an issue with rich people and want them taxed into oblivion. Uhm, HELLO DUMBASS! Did it ever occur to you that you might be rich some day??? Most rich people started off poor and worked their way up. Young adults that are making $25K a year don’t realize that by say age 40, they could be millionaires and would then be stuck with the crappy tax rates that they thought were a good idea in their youth. :nono:
If I see one more one more hippie on TV saying that there shouldn’t be any “rich” people I am going to kick a puppy! Why don’t people realize that they have NEVER worked for a poor person??? Idiots.
Personal income, estate, cap gains. All non-business filers pay on gross income. No deductions, no tax credits; basically you make $1,000 you pay Uncle Whiskers $100. you make $1M you pay $100,000.
Business tax, 10% net. With only GAAP cost of business deductions.
None of the social engineering tax credits here either.
IIRC the numbers I read on this approach would put tax receipts at about 17% of GDP. Which is slightly below the normal post war take of 18.5%, but the government needs trimming back.
Of course none of these tax proposals will give us their full potential economic growth until the Fed regulations are trimmed back by about 2/3rds.
Also don’t forget one of the reasons GE didn’t pay any taxes is because they went to Charles Rangel who at the time was chair of the Ways and Means committee in the House. After negotiating GE was granted a tax exemption which in conjunction with having all the money for top tax lawyers allowed them to pay no taxes. A month later it was announced GE was donating millions of dollars to a project in Rangel’s district.
Type in google: GE donates rangel district
Also type in: cash found in rangel freezer
Theres all sorts of corruption to the point a large business can simply buy their way out of paying taxes, and a small business like Grant’s has to pay the full rates.
I think the gov doesn’t want a flat tax because people would finally understand just how many dollars are being flushed away to the feds. Right now they are mostly hidden, and like the poster above said people only look at how much gets deposited into their bank account. It would sting a lot more if you go buy groceries, and have to tack on another 10%+. Most of that 10% is getting sent to someone elses pocket not for roads, police, military, ect. So of course the gov is going to be against that. The system now allows them to hide just how much poor and average people are secretly paying.
It would be awesome if businnesses stuck something like this next to each item or at the register. Average product cost, business costs like marketing, employee salary, CEO pay, and then tax burden they pay and you are paying. http://www.pumptalk.ca/2008/05/sneak-peak—ne.html
Buying essentials = no tax.
Splurge (luxury purchases) = tax.
I’ll admit to having a functional knowledge deficit in these proposed programs as I grow ever more cynical of the mainstream schemes, I just seem to tune them out.
They all come across as another scheme. Unless, and until, the government starts cutting the hell out of welfare rolls, and the way they are tracked and audited, it’s all one big f’ing clusterscrew.
Social Security is broken and needs to be phased out for good. Give me the ability to opt out and save my employer and me 12+% of my earnings. It’s broke and not going to get better. Just like Madoff, stop the scheme. Tough shit for the “investors”.
Shivan, I am with you on social security. I would much rather have that money that goes to social security out of every one of my checks to go to my own personal retirement plan. I cant invest at this point. Me and my wife are still in that beginner phase of our careers and dont have the opportunity to invest. But I am forced to pay in to this broken system that probably wont be around for me to reap the benefits.
What ends up happening is that people who have the money to invest will still invest while still paying social security and then paying even more taxes on their own investments.
It all goes back to the fact that the government does not have us in their best interest and they do no know what is best for our money.
There’s something like 1.2 million lawyers in the United States and law schools are churning out another 45,000 graduates every year. The numbers are pretty similar for accountants. Over a third of our congressman are attorneys and their staffs are stacked to the gills with attorneys.
If the present Congress errs in too much talking, how can it be otherwise in a body to which the people send one hundred and fifty lawyers, whose trade it is to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour? - Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson is my favorite POTUS of all time.
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. - Thomas Jefferson
I think that you may be confusing Rep. Charlie Rangel with Rep. William J. Jefferson. Charlie just made the all-to-common democrat mistake of not paying taxes on a bunch of property. He also misused some congressional letterhead. He was only censured and never faced any criminal charges since his conduct was fairly typical for your average liberal democrat (see also: Tim Geithner, Tom Daschle, Nancy Killefer, Hilda Solis, etc.). You are correct that Charlie had some shady dealings with GE with respects to school funding for his district, but hey - he did it for the kids!
William Jefferson from New Orleans (of all places) was the one convicted on corruption and bribery charges after cash was found in his freezer. He was sentenced to 13 years, but don’t worry - he may still get his government pension when he gets out.
