I’d like to start with saying that this is a great forum to learn about the AR platform. I read through here for several months before deciding to pick up a Daniel Defense M4V4. I’m glad I took the time to read through the comments and learn from others who have far more experience than I do with the platform. I outfitted the flat top configuration with Troy BUIS. I did a little research and tried to understand the various zero options for the rifle. Today was actually my first time shooting the rifle and only had time to push the rifle to 25 yards. I took a picture of the last few shots and wanted to ask if this would make the current set up that I have a 50 yard zero? The group I shot seems to be roughly 2inches lower than the center of the target. I know it’s not the best group ever but this is really the first trigger time I’ve had with an AR platform. I know that there are a couple of shots really close to center and a couple a little lower than 2 inches, but I focused on being 2 inches low at 25 yards as this was my understanding of a 50 yard zero while only being able to shoot 25 yards. Am I correct? Thanks in advance
You will be close enouigh to actually zero at 50.
Remember, you are only zeroed at the distance you actually shoot, everything else is a guess, an educated guess, but unverified none the less.
So with this current set the way it is, is it safe to say that the next time I have a trip to the range I could just set the target up at 50 yards and be on paper? I’m trying to dial it in with M855. I believe I read that you could zero with M855 and be able to shoot M193 and not be that far off… however not vice versa. Sorry to ask so many questions, but I just don’t want to waste money, time and effort and not having the right ideas behind the basic concepts.
Yup.
I’m trying to dial it in with M855. I believe I read that you could zero with M855 and be able to shoot M193 and not be that far off… however not vice versa.
You can pretty much shoot a random handfull of different cartridges at 50 yards and be fine. I usually see less than 2" of shif at 100 meters between any two different cartridges.
The issues don’t really show up unless you are shooting at distances past 100 meters and are precision oriented. Still, it’s always a good idea to have a dead-nuts zero with your preferred/most used/or most important ammo and use the rest for distances inside 100.
Sorry to ask so many questions, but I just don’t want to waste money, time and effort and not having the right ideas behind the basic concepts.
No problem, it’s what we do here.
I appreciate your help. I think most of the variation in my shooting today came from my sight picture more so than the ammo or distance. I’m new to shooting rifles, so it is hard for me to find a sight picture that is exactly the same each time I look through the sights. I think this is going to be the main issue for me.
Highly recommend zeroing from the prone.
I shot from a bench. I supported the rifle with a bag under the rail and tried to keep as level as possible. I used the large aperature on the rear sight as well. Should I have used the smaller one?
Shoot prone (with magazine on the deck).
You can zero with large ap, but most people are going to use the small ap for accuracy.
C4
If you are using a carry handle, chances are that the small aperture is going to be a slightly different point of impact (POI) compared to the large aperture due to the two being on different planes. At the bottom of the aperture, you will see 0-200M on the large, and 300M on the small. The large aperture is used for closer distances, and the small is used for futher. Beyond 300m, you will use the elevation drum to change the point of aim and point of impact (POA/POI) on your rifle to make hits. But, if you are using a back-up sight like a Troy, Larue, Daniel Defense, these typically do not have an elevation drum, and the two apertures are on the same plane so there is no difference between the two except for the lens effect of the smaller aperture.
Smaller aperture is easier to be more accurate with. Use it for your zero.
He has a Troy rear sight
Thanks for all the replies. I think I need to go back to the range this Sunday to finish the 50 yard zero. I ran out of time on Sunday so I got it as close as the pictures and stopped tinkering. I’ll see if I can shoot from prone with the smaller ap. Maybe this will make a difference. Now are there any secrets to keeping a consistent sight picture with irons?
Practice.
Try sticking a target paster on your wall and doing dry fires.
Edit: I find consistency when I touch my nose to the charging handle.
You should focus on having the same exact position when zeroing from prone. Or a vice if you have one, but vices make it hard to have a proper hold. After it’s zeroed, it’s time behind the trigger that will get you the consistancy you want.
The dry firing drill is really good for this. Start from low ready and practice bringing the weapon up into the same position without worrying about firing at first. Once you have that “feel” of where you’re most comfortable/consistant with a sight picture, then hit the range.
Pretty much agree with everyone else, but I’ll add that what a “50-yard zero” is really attempting to approximate is a rough 200 yard zero that then should be confirmed at that distance. Without re-hashing the old argument I’ll just use the colloquial “50-yard zero” terminology.
What you basically did was stop the process short. The correct full process is:
[ol]
[li]get on paper ~1.5-2" low at 25 yards
[/li][li]get POI=POA at 50 yards
[/li][li]get hard, true, zero at 200 yards
[/li][li]verify at 50
[/li][li]shoot at various distances to check hold-over/under
[/li][/ol]
If you stop at step 1, is it good enough? I don’t know, good enough for what? If you stop at step 2, is it good enough? I don’t know, good enough for what?
Remember that with angles you’re multiplying the adjustment by the same factor as the distance, so a 4" group at 50 yards that appears to be centered but is actually 1" left will turn into a 16" group at 200 yards that’s going to be really hard to nail down and will have a center 4" to the left, meaning that depending on your target size it will lead to the majority of rounds being “misses”.
Agreed. Holy smokes, the large app sucks. I mean… that thing is worthless. And I’m an Irons only carbine shooter.
And there are people like me that suck so bad with irons it doesn’t really matter. Mark shoots groups, I shoot " center mass". Sad but true. I can hit an 8 inch plate at 300 yards, but the thought of a tight group is ridiculous with my eyes.
The large (0-200) rear sight is used for two things. Zeroing at 25 meters, and night firing with iron sights. If you’re zeroing at 50 meters\yards then use the small rear sight.
This explains a lot to me. I would have shot at 50 yards on Sunday to make sure it was dead on but I just ran out of time. I thought posting my experience and where I left off would be a good indicator for those who read to say whether or not I was on the right track or not. So, when I do go back, I will start at 50 yards. I thought that I understood the procedure but this is clear cut and concise so I do appreciate it. The only issue with the above information for me is that my range is only 100 yards indoors, so I will have to try to locate somewhere I can shoot a known 200 yards to be sure.
Why not just go with a 100 yd zero?
The 50 & 200 are usable, but the 100 is the most applicable for 99% of AR tasks, you can very effectively hit torsos past 200 yds with it without significant hold-over, and close-range speed/precision is simplified.
Not trying to start a 50/200 vs 100 argument, just pointing out that if you have an indoor 100 yd range, it is most suited to achieving a 100 yard zero, which is a preferred zero for many that have used several different zeros.