Some things you just know you’ll want on your rifle. For example, if you just know that you hate stock hand guards, and you’ll yank them off the minute you get the rifle, it makes sense to buy an upper without guards, or one that already come with what you want, and just bypass the stockers. Why put even one dollar towards a part you know you’ll never want or use?
A trigger, of course, is a necessary item. If you don’t necessarily know why you’d want a Geissele trigger (other than a suspicion that they’re better than stock (and I’m not contesting this)), then it might not necessarily make sense to flow your dollars that direction right now. Looking at Grant’s LPK options, you’re paying $25 more to get the stock hammer/trigger group (compared to the same kit without it). Correspondingly, it’s a $101 difference to go with the Geisselle (and that’s slightly off, since that offering doesn’t come with a trigger guard). Net difference of $76 (plus the cost of a MOE trigger guard, if you want to be picky) for the Geissele upgrade.
Again, if you know you don’t want to send one round downrange with a stock trigger…get the Geissele upgrade to begin with. On the other hand, if your funds are limited, get what you need (a functional trigger) right now, plus what you -know- you want immediately, and leave yourself some upgrade paths for the future, once you start playing with the setup. If nothing else, it’s easily worth the $25 to have a backup stock hammer/trigger group lying around, if you upgrade to a nicer setup down the road.
Getting the stocker also leaves you the chance to try some different setups down the road, and compare them to a baseline before you decide where you want to spend your upgrade dollars. Once you try a few different setups, you may decide on something different altogether (such as a different model Geissele, different brand, etc).
And to Azpilot: I think you have made the most sense to me for where I am at the moment. I have no doubt that the Geissele trigger is as great as everyone has said. But thinking things over, the $101 difference would best be spent else where. That is almost the price of a BCG or rear iron sight, things I know I will need against an upgraded trigger that is perhaps more of a luxury item.
You must have replied while I was typing but I was thinking the same thing. I think of all my guns the only thing I have every felt that I need to do was place a lighter spring kit in my Vaquero. Other than that every other firearm I own have been more than enough for me. Also being my first AR I guess I should know what a stock trigger feels like first. From what I have read the one offered with G & R is pretty good for a GI model.
A proficient shooter should be able to shoot a stock trigger or a Geissele trigger well. A Geissele just makes it a lot easier and more enjoyable. The fundamentals of marksmanship are sight alignment and trigger control. A Geissele will not make that MORE difficult to master.
I have an SD-E but would recommend the SD-C for a defensive gun. The SD-E is great though, just a tad on the light side. Especially if you are used to heavier triggers in your other weapons.
The trigger that came with my Colt was hands down the worst trigger I ever felt on any weapon I have ever tried in 20 years of shooting. It had a gritty 8-9lb break.
My buddy bought a M&P 15 and the trigger broke very clean at 6 lbs. If that was my trigger I wouldn’t have been in a hurry to upgrade.
Now that I did, the trigger on my AR is more in line with my other weapons including my primary defensive pistol (a 1911:eek:). Transitioning from my AR (8-9lb and gritty) to my pistol (4lb clean) was not easy and caused me to think (about the trigger) too much.
That’s why I specified “new AR shooters”. I don’t think NEW shooters would find a stock AR trigger to be bad at all. They haven’t been sold on the notion that marksmanship is to be blamed on the trigger and not the shooter.
An aftermarket trigger (Geissele) is about 20-30% of the cost of a base rifle NIB. Do I get a 20-30% increase in performance? Not even close. I even get less performance at high speeds up close and I am not talking just split times.
Does your average person get a 20-30% increase in performance? I would say no.
Does a new shooter get that increase? No.
Would they more than likely be much better off spending that money elsewhere, maybe even on ammunition and correct training / instruction? Definitely.
Another member here gave a good definition. Have I ever missed a shot on a non magnified battle grade rifle that I feel I would have made with an aftermarket trigger? No.
Have I ever made a shot on a non magnified battle grade rifle with an aftermarket trigger that I feel I would have missed with a USGI type trigger? No
The car analogy is purely being spoiled. Let me use a better analogy in reference to 1911 triggers / shooters, since it involves firearms and more people here might relate to that especially since most people can’t afford or may have never even driven a Porsche. If you can shoot a stock Glock trigger well, you can shoot or quickly learn to shoot a fine tuned 1911 trigger very very well or learn it extremely quickly. Now take someone who primarily shoots a fine tuned 1911 trigger and then place a Glock in their hands and watch them cry or whine about how bad that POS weapon and trigger is. Bottom line it takes much more work to be able to shoot the Glock trigger well. They can’t get away with poor technique and slapping at the trigger. They need finer trigger control and other base fundamentals. Now if that same person has only learned to shoot a 1911 trigger, they are screwed if they shoot anything else. It takes a lot of work to reverse engineer that. So basically if you can shoot a stock Glock (or similar difficult DA trigger) and do it well, you can shoot just about anything well. Or you can learn it much quicker. Not the case the other way around.
I get it fellas. I like nice things also. But it isn’t always the best thing for the job or the best advice to give someone. I know some people might have a 911 for a first car, but they are missing out on a great driving lesson that can be learned from a manual transmission and perhaps no power steering and no power brakes. If I can drive that POS very well and compete, I will outdrive most 911 owners with little time behind the wheel of the 911. Not likely the other way around.
Shame on the OP for not laying out what the gun was for, and his experience level, and that makes the comments above perfectly appropriate. That said, i’ve only been here a short time but i’m so sick of hearing this spoiled trigger stuff. Any shooter worth his salt can in just a few hundred rounds can go from his 2 1/2 lb trigger to a stock glock or other horendous trigger FAIRLY easily and will be able to hang with those who only shoot hard triggers, or close. You guys (perhaps instructors?) make it sound so difficult, and it’s not IMO. Granted seeing someone do it during a two day class likely often fails.
As far as colt OE’s go, they aren’t poor trigs compared with others. And OLD AK’s and Gahlils have some of the best OE trigs around. My first black rifle was an HK91 in the 70’s. THATS a battle trigger.
IMHO for civilians, look at your skills, and whoever else may have to use the weapon, keep the HD guns 4-5 lbs minium, and shoot the lightest and crispest trig you feel safe with for recreational shooting. You will shoot them better and will smile more.
While i’m not combat experienced, i can certainly envision several scenarios where a light trigger may save your life- ie injuries, one handed shots needing accuracy.
While my guess is most on this site have a strong tactical mindset, we civilians shoot primarily for fun. Posters really need to state their objectives and experience. No one wants to take up unecessay bandwith (except me you say?) but posts seem to go waywire on this site because of this.
Agreed Tanto. I shot my stock Colt trigger as well as the SD-E, but the SD-E it much easier to shoot well.
If you master the fundamentals of shooting you can adjust to any trigger in the mater of a few shots.
Under The analogy Surf presented, Tiger Woods would not be able to adjust to a cheap set of clubs because he has been spoiled by an entire lifetime of using the best stuff. Tiger has been given the best stuff since he was a boy. I wouldn’t expect many to be able to beat him if he had to use some K Mart clubs.
The analogy is also assumptive that people that have good triggers and shoot well only shoot well because they have good triggers.
The only logical rational argument I have heard against a Geissele trigger is the financial one. If dropping $200 on a trigger is going to cause you to skip taking a class or buying ammo to train or practice with, etc, don’t do it. If you have the cash why not.
I think the necessity of laying out what the AR will be used for and shooters experience is over rated. Why? Because no matter what category AR or shooter experience, it’s usually suggested that a basic 16" rifle with a quality barrel is a good choice. Shooters rarely go wrong choosing a basic carbine then configuring the sights to suit the job at hand.
Part and parcel of the Great Trigger Debate is the misunderstanding of what constitutes a good trigger. A good trigger is often defined as one with a light, crisp pull. But that’s not always a good trigger for the job. A good trigger is reliable, durable, consistent and controllable. A good stock AR trigger is all of those. That isn’t to say all stock AR triggers are good. Some are not.
The Geisselle is a great trigger. But it’s not always a good trigger. For a self defense trigger, the “E” series isn’t always a good choice. It is reliable, durable and consistent but under conditions of fast and/or stressful shooting, it’s not always controllable. Under these conditions, it’s too light to give the shooter good tactile feedback before it breaks. It is simply not heavy enough for the average shooter.
It’s a misconception that people think a “good” trigger will somehow make them better shots. Get off that already. There are no knowledgeable shooters that think there is piece of gear that will imbue a magical +5 To Hit bonus on their AR. But there are triggers that will allow shooters to apply their skills more effectively and are less of a hindrance to their progress. Whether that’s a good stock AR trigger or the appropriate Geisselle remains up the individual shooter.
If you have a gritty stock AR trigger, clean it up and apply heavy grease to all the sear surfaces. You might be surprised at the results. If you do decide to get the Geisselle, choose the model that’s appropriate for the job. I feel the heavier SSA is a better choice than the lighter, crisper “E” series for a general use rifle
A better analogy pertaining to shooting would be thinking that Rob Leatham or Todd Jarrett couldn’t shoot any other pistol besides a 1911 with a great trigger. That is utter nonsense and nowhere within the realm of the message that I was attempting to convey.
I tried one of those out in a jig this weekend. Real nice trigger but not one I would recommend to the OP (not that you were) It’s pretty lite and w/o a definite 2nd, quite a surprise when it breaks.
Definitely something for an experienced shooter. Damn, all those years you put in to mastering the fundamentals of trigger control will be thrown out the window with that thing
To those who have a S3G or SD3G trigger and feel it’s too lite, we do have a 4.5 lb and 6lb trigger spring available for $5 plus $2.50 for S&H. Just send a check with a note telling us which trigger spring you would like. HTH
John Butterworth
Geissele Automatics
1920 West Marshall St.
Norristown, PA 19403
A bit of thread drift, but recently purchased the Geesile (sp) for my M16 commando that was bone stock. FA trig pull did go down about 2 lbs with a very long pull now. Thats fine for FA. I"m happy with that. But the ever so important SA pull went UP 3 oz’s. It does have a little less creep, but not much less. They are the only folks i could find that do FA work so i didn’t send it back even though it was $400 or so. It appears to be well engineered, but if i ever find anyone who can do both, the GS will go bye bye. I did call them and ask if they could get me at least a pound or so off the SA. They would/could not. Not relevant to the SA trigs discussed, but hopefully of interest to someone. For what is a playtoy for me ideally would have a 6 lb FA with a healthy measure of creep and a 3 1/2-4 SA will little or no creep. Do i need it? No. Will it allow me to skip cans out to a farthur distance. Thats a guarantee. No slam on GS intended. It may not be possible. And i do understand full well the liability issues involved in their line of work. And i love my hat, right?
On the trig thing - i’m wondering if you rifle guys are the ones that spoiled as the bulk weight makes the need for a good trig less important than a handgun. There isn’t a handgun shooter in the world that won’t put more points on the board with a 3 1/2 lb trig in relation to say a 5. Not a lot, but we are talking absolutes here i assume. I have also done some training and even newbies shoot better when i let them do ONE MAGAZINE on a worked trigger.
And i do understand the responsiblity to help someone be safe. WE all know there are just SO many folks out there that should NEVER be allowed on the range with even a 4 lb trig. JMO
I always hear that a nice trigger wont make a bad shooter an expert or whatever…Who the hell in here is suggesting that it would??? I’ve never heard anyone say that.
Do nice (er) triggers somehow magically make it impossible to practice proper fundamentals??? Switching between triggers isnt NEARLY as hard as some are making it seem. I constantly go from Glock to HK to Sig to Revolvers to Sig rifles to GI triggers to Geissele to Rem 700 etc. and never have a damn problem. I guess maybe brand new shooters might have issues. I will say that the first trigger I "mastered" was the stock Glock so maybe that was a good thing.
I dont even think the cost of these triggers holds any water as a major negative. There are plenty of parts that cost X% of the rifle that in no way make you X% better. I dont get that. Its preference .
I shoot my 16" carbine @600 yards often with a GI trigger on 12"x16" steel and its not very hard to hit. So, a GI trigger can definitely get the job done but I prefer something nicer. My preference has nothing to do with lacking proper fundamentals or blah blah…
