I apologize for my thoughtlessness. I would like to see the thread get back on track. Even though I stick to 55gr FMJ due to cost and commonality, I want to learn about how other weights and loads are used.
Check out the Recoil Magazine article linked in post #10. Barnes TSX monolithic solid copper 62 grain hollow points and the Bonded soft point (Trophy Bonded Bear Claw) type bullet loads are spectacular defensive ammo, even from 10.3" SBR firearms, the subject of this thread and that article.
Yes, this ammo is pricey, but just a loaded mag or two will usually take care of you should harm come your way. Train with fmj and just confirm your zero with tbe good stuff. I hand load and have loads developed with the 62 Barnes TSX that replicate M855 trajectory and have 55 gr. bonded soft point loads that replicate M193 trajectory.
Thanks!
I am very fortunate that the LE223T1 has virtually the same zero as the 55gr FMJ I have on hand.
Thanks for the article about the barnes ammo. I have heard great things about it. I am going with the LE223T1 just because I have substantially more of it than the barnes.
Even at 2700 fps the TSX did not open as well as the Fusion at 2500 fps, and one of two TSX shots had a very late opening in the Clear Ballistics medium. Get a little further away or shoot through something that plugs cavity of the TSX and it may not open at all. The Fusion (Gold Dot) design appears more reliable.
Or get real ballistic test media?
Heavier projectiles seem to perform better out of shorter barrels.
LE223T3 if you’re dealing with barriers.
LE223T1 if you’re not.
Overall and generally speaking, solid copper performs better than lead, especially heavier.
I am issued LE223T3 and I have no complaints.
I’m a firm believer in stacking the deck in my favor. A few mags of better performing (but just as important much more consistently performing ammo) is not a significant cost.
Put another way, if someone breaks down your door looking to harm you or your family would you rather a mag of better ammo in your rifle or some more M193 in your basement stash?
Do you have FBI protocol data for the 62 grain TSX from a short barrel?
Out of 16" guns or shorter?
20, 16, 11.5, and 10.3.
TSX isn’t a reliable expander. While it is a good bullet (deep penetration) I would rather use Gold Dot. Great penetration and expansion at lower velocities.
On another note: I would have no problem carrying 55gn FMJ. It is a solid load. I would obviously carry a different load if possible. Someone also said something about Federal 223E game king in 55. That is a great load. Many LE departments use it. Great fragmentation and still offers Adequate penetration.
You’d choose a 55gr FMJ over TSX? Really? TSX and TTSX have been very reliable for me in tbe field on deer sized game from 50 to 150 yards. TSX can shed petals if shot through a barrier, especially a windshield, but otherwise, it expands well across a wide range of velocities (distance). TTSX with its polymer tip in the hollow point does not have that pedal shedding problem.
M193 type 55gr FMJ has very inconsistent fragmentation. There is a reason its no longer in use by military. It either produces dramatic results or just make shallow wounds, or ice picks. I just don’t like fragmentation ammo, not even 77gr. SMK, if good monolithic TTSX or bonded bullets like Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or Gold Dot are available.
Gold Dot is an excellent bonded bullet. I say nothing negative about it. I like it, but its .223 velocity.
But, as a hand loader I have multiple weights of TSX and TTSX bullets in .223 caliber 50gr, 55gr, 62gr and 70gr (this one needs 1:8 or faster twist). All are more accurate than Gold Dot, although Gold Dot is “accurate enough” for most duty situations. I settled on the 62gr TSX or TTSX at 5.56 NATO pressure as my “go to” hunting and self defense load. TTSX is less likely to have problems penetrating fabric, if that is a concern for self defense/duty.
My experience is with 16" barrels, so I can’t vouch for TSX or TTSX from shorter barrels based on personal experience. In theory a TTSX bullet should have no barrier blind issues, including fabric layers and if loaded to 5.56 pressure ought to act at defense distances in a SBR like a hunting round fron a 16"-18" barrel at 100-150 yards, plenty of reliable expansion, ability to break bone and still leave an exit wound. Deep reliable penetration.
Where did I say I would take 55 FMJ over TSX??? 223 GD is great just as is. GD is not bonded by the way. 2nd BS statement by you. I said I would not feel under gunned with 55gn. TSX is a good load but reliant on higher velocity then gold dot. Gold dot is the better load in my opinion.
You said “I would have no problem carrying 55gr FMJ . . . It’s a solid load”. You said “TSX is not a reliable expander”. Its reasonable to conclude that you would choose 55gr FMJ over TSX. If I’m wrong, I’m glad to have been corrected.
Speer would disagree with you about Gold Dot not being bonded. I did not fib, unless you are saying Speer is lying, too. Its not nice to say someone lies. (Fib is just a euphemism for it). Lies or fibs are intentional falsehoods. So is accusing one of BS. Words matter.
Speer says they indeed bond the core and jacket.
https://www.speer.com/performance/gold-dot-performance.html
Rather than impune your character or integrity, I’ll merely conclude you were honestly mistaken, sir.
Gold Dot is absolutely a bonded round: https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24446
Emphasis added by me.
I would be extremely leery of using GameKing or 55 gr FMJ over TSX/TTSX in any kind of duty capacity, due to their non-bonded/non-monolithic/non-mechanical-locking construction, which might perform adequately against bare flesh, but are not barrier blind, which for me is a key consideration for self-defense/duty.
If it’s all you have, it’s all you have, but if given a choice, I’d rather pick something with better barrier performance.
TSX has expanded quite nicely for me in both hunting and tests. Never had a failure to expand except when shooting steel barriers for testing; hardly surprising in that case.
When talking about TSX it’s helpful to note which particular bullet, loaded by whom, to what velocity, and measured by what testing standard/medium. TSX is available as a component in both catalogued and proprietary variants, and loaded by a number of a places. That said, my experience differs and generally find them quite satisfactory.
I would agree that the GDSP is indeed a GTG option. It is a bonded bullet though, per Speer itself: https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/default.aspx
Like their handgun counterparts, the Gold Dot rifle bullets are constructed using Gold Dot technology. The process of joining the jacket and core one molecule at a time eliminates the potential for the leading cause of bullet failure—jacket/core separation. It also ensures impressive weight retention through barriers as tough as auto-glass.
Some will argue electroplating is not bonded, that bonded is a technical term that only applies when done to a traditional cup and core bullet. There is more you can do with cup and core from a design standpoint, from tapering the jacket thickness to partition to a hybrid between a partition and solid copper.
It’s not really worth arguing about, the GD won’t shed it’s jacket or fragment easily.
It’s all about choosing the right tool for the job. For HD use in an urban, semi suburban neighborhood like where I am and 300 yard shots are not going to happen, the 50g TSX loaded by Black Hills is terrific for all the most likely scenarios. The 62g in the OP is going to be fine in most scenarios as well, although from what i’ve seen and read of other’s experiences, the copper TSX rounds (except for the 50g bullet BH loads) do sheer petals through windshield glass but in the vast majority of scenarios, it’ll work just fine. I have all my preloaded mags ready with the BH 50g and don’t worry about running into something it can’t or won’t do. Backups include 62g Black Hills TSX, ASYM 70g TSX and my own handloaded 70g TSX at 5.56 pressures. Wouldn’t be terrible to use any when/if SHTF.