Good Morning Folks, Just to verify my own observations, exactly which load didnthe FBI ‘most recently’ adopt for their issue 9mm’s ? I’ve noted that they appear to have decided upon the Speer G2 version 147 GDHP, although I keep running across very recently dated articles that they adopted the Hornandy ‘Critical Duty’ brand for their issue weapons ? Is it perhaps the Hornandy load for all calibers other than 9mm or did they suddenly decide against Critical Duty loadings ? Any input will be much appreciated. THANKS
THANKS Gent’s. It appeared to be too much of a reversal on the Hornandy loads, as they had only recently been decided upon. I heard some rumors about the Speer 9mm G2 147 gr. load a few years back, but IIRC, it proved not to live up to it’s speculation during initial ( independent ) testing. Perhaps they have worked the kinks out, which tends to be SOP whenever new equipment is adopted, be it ammunition, weapons, optics, etc. Many years ago, when the then new 147 JHP’s were being touted as the ‘wonder load’, I personally was not one who supported their use. I just couldn’t see when we were bashing the 158 gr. .38 SPL.+P at @ 900 fps, but were pushing a 9mm at 147 gr. at @ 975 fps ? I just couldn’t see such a greater increase in effectiveness as to warrant the change over, if not for a systems switch, as in 9mm pistols versus .38 Spl. revolvers. But, times have changed, & sadly so have our collective association with firearms. A great many LE recruits have never even touched, or even viewed a firearm up close, never mind being reasonably familliar with one. So to this dismay of many instructor’s, we must cater to the masses & issue a round that can be handled by the majority of recruit personnel, wether we like it or not. At leasts that’s the relative concensus I’ve noted within the field. Personally, I favor any caliber that can perform the job at hand, which is induce the target to cease all resitstance, & submit to arrest, right ? If the new Speer G2 load is capable of such action, so be it, as I too can see the added benefits of a smaller, more user friendly duty load. OK Kids, that’s my rant for the morning. THANKS again for the kind replies.
I placed an order on the FBI contract last month for 9mm and 5.56mm. The last contract listed Speer G2 147grain and Winchester Ranger bonded 147grain. As of last month I was informed the contract ceiling for Speer G2 purchases was hit and no more Speer is available for purchase on the FBI contract. The contracting officer told me a new purchase agreement was being worked on for FY18. Interesting to see that Hornady got the 40. David
FBI have proven themselves to be bumbling idiots in every thing they do. Why are they given so much credibility with ballistics. Last place I would go for any imformation
The problem G2 was found to be a manufacturing, not design fault and is fixed. That was three years ago as I recall.
Ballistic gel and testing through barriers, especially 4L denim has taken us out of the dark ages of “knock down power” “one shot stop” “energy” and water jugs. It is a consistent test medium that provides results that have been comparable to actual shootings. Now there is room to debate expansion vs barrier vs penetration and how the FBI can choose a different priority than I do. I chose the better expanding to carry myself, based on my threat assessment.
I believe the FBI uses the two is one method. That means having two loads of similar performance approved in case one has problems or has delivery delays. Hornady CD is one of the better barrier, deeper penetrating loads like G2 so that would make sense.
I talk to big-city ER docs and medical examiners, read autopsy reports and look at autopsy and CSU photos, study how anatomy works. Conclusions are radically different from shooters’ conventional wisdom:
All the service calibers work (or don’t work) the same. 9mm, .40, .45, .38, .357, there’s no discernible difference.
Hollow points usually don’t expand. They either look pretty pristine or they just look mangled.
Hollow points usually exit.
MEs and ER docs can’t tell from the entrance, exit, or wound track what kind of bullet it is. Only way to tell is to recover a bullet.
Trick bullets (Critical Defense, those weird ones with the flutes, etc) are all marketing hype.
I carry FMJ in my carry guns. If you want JHP, buy something like Federal 9BP ($16 / 50 rounds) or the Remington or Winchester equivalent.
.2 Do they know the difference between hollow points? I mean a doctor can’t tell the difference if it was a PPU, or Wolf hollow point vs Federal or GD?!? If most shots were civilian on civilian and most people buy cheap then it wouldn’t be a stretch that the “hollow points” were simply fmj bullets with holesin the center?!
Not sure what you’re asking. If doctors and pathologists can’t tell the difference, looking at wounds, between JHP and FMJ generally, they sure can’t tell you the brand or design of the bullet from looking at the wound.
And nobody, but nobody, sits around drilling axial holes in FMJ bullets and then getting into urban shootings.
That’s kinda my point. Assuming it was a civilian shooting and not police. People tend to buy the cheapest things possible. “Just as good as” is a very common phrase in gun stores and gun forums. Not all ammo is created equal and just because it has a hole in the center doesn’t mean it will behave like a hollow point. And that’s essentially what some companies do. They make a bullet with a cavity and call it a hollow point. Meanwhile that bullet behaves like a fmj. No one is sitting at home drilling holes. You see my point?
So, now some person buys the cheap eastern European “hollow points” thinking that “it’s just as good as”, uses it and end result the doctor in the hospital sees a misshapen bullet with a cavity and proclaims hollow points don’t work. And technically his opinion is correct based on his observation. Unfortunately he doesn’t know if that bullet was made by Wolf, who’s known for poor design and quality control or Federal
Does that make more sense?
For visual reference. I know these videos are chessy but I was looking for quick and in the same media
Yes. But I have seen primo stuff behave the same way. Silvertip .45 x 4, 300 pound body, all exited. Speer .357 JHP, skull and shoulder hits, no expansion. Etc. Handgun velocity bullet expansion is iffy at best.
You’ve seen it how? Are you a doctor? Hospital employee? Are you allowed into the morgue? I’m sorry but Uni-Vibe doesn’t exactly relate any meaning. And of course what weapons are we talking about? 357sig is probably not doing much expansion out of a sub compact pocket gun. Neither does 9 or 45 or 40 really. Just like a 357 mag will not expend out of a snub nose like it would out of a 4in barrel
All been documented that majority of hollow points require duty size guns to properly expand. Which is why theres now an attempt to make sub compact specific ammo.
Too many variables to simply state that they’re all the same and HP is no different than fmj when you don’t know the ammo or gun used
Too many variables to simply state that they’re all the same and HP is no different than fmj
But the point is, people are killed by all kinds of barrel lengths, and all kinds of bullets, and the pros can’t tell the difference unless they see the bullet.
Yes true. Also sometimes they live long enough to beat the owner of the gun to death. So what? They guy could have died 5 hours later! It’s not that they die it’s when. People get killed with 22lr all the time but I don’t see anyone advocating the carrying of 22lr as a valid option
I would gyess most hollowpoints look the same because most gang bangers dont use Hst or gold-dots.
OIS show that those rounds typically replicate the 4ld tests.